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1877. NEW ZEALAND.
PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE.
REPORT ON FOUR PETITIONS OF BESIDENTS OF HAWKE'S BAT, RELATIVE TO THE TE AUTE ESTATE, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.
424. Petition of 100 Inhabitants of the Town of Napier. 446. Petition of 144 Residents of Hawke's Bay. 450. Petition of J. W. Humphrey and 59 other Residents from District of Hawke's Bay. 451. Petition of C. W. Robinson and 59 other Residents Hawke's Bay.
The Petitioners state that a block of land, at Te Aute, containing 2383 acres, was granted for the benefit of the aboriginal inhabitants of New Zealand; and a second block adjoining, containing 1626 acres, was granted for the education of the children of Her Majesty's subjects of both races. That the land is held by the llev. S. Williams, under lease (which will expire in Feb., 1878), at a rental of £500. That the estate will yield a much greater rental if let by tender, or cut up into smaller lots and let on long leases. That they are informed that it is the intention of the Trustees to grant a fresh lease of the land to the Rev. S. Williams, at an inadequate rental. They represent that the management of the school, supported by the endowment, has not been satisfactory, and they pray for inquiry into tbe matter. The Committee, having made inquiry into the case of the petitioners, have directed me to report that the Committee are satisfied that the management of the Te Aute Estate has been, hitherto, such as to improve its value. They recommend that in the interest of education, it should be so dealt with for the future as to produce the largest immediate revenue without detriment to the ultimate value of the property; and that every letting should be by public auction or public tender. THOMAS KELLY, sth Dec., 1877- Chairman.
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MINUTES OF EVIDENCE ON FOUR PETITIONS RELATIVE TO THE TE AUTE ESTATE.
Tuesbat, 13th November, 1577. Ret. S. Williams in attendance and examined. 1. I'he Chairman.] Can you tell us the total acreage of'the Te Aute estate?— About 7000 acres. 2. I have been looking over the grants. It appears there have been about 8,2 L 7 acres granted in four grants. First, there was a grant of 4,214, another of 338 acres, another of 3,153 acres, another of 382 acres. Is all this included in the Te Aute estate now ?—There have been some exchanges, and some of that land has been re-conveyed to the Government. 3. The first is a grant of 1,745 acres, and was made on 10th June, 1857. Is that still held by the trustees ?—Yes. 4. There was another grant of 1508 acres on the same day ?—Part of that was re-conveyed to the Government. 5. How much ?—I could not say. I gave all particulars on that point in my evidence before the Royal Commission in 1869. 6. Then there was a grant of 2,244 acres in 1857. Is that still held ?—Tes. 7. Then there are grants in 1858, of 338 and 244 acres. Are those lands still held ?—Tes. Those lands were exchanged, and should, by right, be included in the land given by the Natives. In my evidence in 1869, and also in my evidence iv 1875, I pointed out that there had been an error. 8. I see that this land is not held now in the same trust?—No ; I called the attention of the trustees to that; and on two occasions I have called the attention of the House to it. 9. I see, with respect to this grant of 4,244 acres and the 338 acres, that that part of the land is held for the benefit of a school for both races, and that the 1745 acres and 1,508 acres are held in trust for the benefit of'the aboriginal inhabitants. How were these two trusts kept distinct ?—lt has been managed as one trust. 10. And for the benefit of'whom ?—I have calculated that for the present about twenty children may be supported as foundation scholars, and I have endeavoured to keep five European children, that is a quarter of the number of foundation scholars. There are now only three; but 1 have arranged to to take more at the beginning of the year. 11. What is the total number of children on the books ?—There are 36 now on the books. 12. Who are the trustees!—The Bishop of Wellington ; Hon. Mr. Stokes; Mr. George Hunter ; and Mr. Bannatyne. 13. They were the trustees of the 382 acres. How did they become trustees for the other portions of the estate?—lt was conveyed to them by the Bishop of New Zealand under an Act of the General Assembly. 14. Tou are the tenant of the estate?—I managed the estate for the benefit of the trust till 1869. Since that time my connection with the estate has been as tenant. The term of my lease expires in February next. 15. What rental has been paid by you ?—£soo a year. IP. Has any arrangement been entered into with respect to the future tenure ?—No. I was asked by one of the trustees, simply acting in his individual capacity, if I would be prepared to make an offer to the trustees ; but I declined to do so. I said I should leave the trustees to act according to their own judgment. 17. Then the trustees have not come to any determination ?—I heard it remarked by gentlemen in Wellington what an extraordinary circumstance it was that two of the trustees should act independently of the other two. I therefore asked the question, if anything had been done, and I was furnished with a copy of the minutes of proceedings at the last meeting of the trustees, when I found that it was resolved that no steps should be taken until Mr. George Hunter, one of the trustees, had had an opportunity of visiting Hawke's Bay and Te Aute, and making further enquiries. 18. The petition states that it would be for the benefit of the trust if the land was cut up into small lots, and let by tender. Do you concur in that suggestion'?—l suggested such a step to the consideration of tho trustees. I did not offer a definite opinion on the subject. There is much to be said both for and against such a course being taken. .19. What is the present condition of the estate : Is it under grass ?—Parts are very well grassed; other parts are only partially grassed. There is a great deal of fern on certain parts of the land. 20. Is the country of that character that it ought to be let in large blocks, or in smaller blocks ? —My suggestion referred more particularly to that part of the estate near which we supposed the railway station would be. But the station has not been placed where we had been led to expect it would be placed. 21. Where is the school placed: the school that is supported out of the trust funds?—At the extreme north-east corner of the largest block of land. 22. Is it maintained entirely out of the proceeds cf the estate ?—For the last two years we have received a grant from the Government of £200 a year. 23. Assuming that an increased rent were obtained CI see that the estate is variously estimated to be worth from £1500 a year upwards), would not that increase the means for educating children. Would it not be likely that a larger number of children would be educated?—No doubt.
*» S. William*. . 13th Nov" W7'
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Xev. S. Williams 13th Nov., 1877.
. 24. Are there not children of both races in the district, that could be benefitted by an accession of funds to the estate ?—Certainly. 25. Therefore the proceeds from an increased rental could be beneficially used ?—Tes. 26. Are the children in the school children of Natives residing in the vicinity of the school, or of Natives in other parts of the Colony ?—The greater number of the children come from the East Coast. I think there are eight children from the Hawke's Bay district. • 27. Are the children of Natives who gave the land receiving education I —l do not recollect one there just now. We have had three or four, but they left after a short time. 28. What is the reason of that ?—The indifference of the children, and of the parents, as to the advantages of education. I have done all I could possibly do to induce the children to come to the school. 29. Are the means at the disposal of the trustees sufficient to allow of any more children being taken in ?—Wo are full at present; but we shall be able in January, owing to the increase in school accommodation, to take a larger number of children. 30. Have you always given the children of Natives in the district the preference ?—Tes. 31. Mr. Murray] When was this land set apart as an endowment ?—ln 1853 or 1854. 32. Did you then assume the management t —Tes. The endowments were offered as an inducement for me to go to Hawke's Bay and leave the AVest Coast. 33. That is with regard to the Native land. AVhat with respect to the other land?— Sir George Grey made it a condition that I should go to Hawke's Bay. He said he felt very anxious in respect to Hawke's Bay. That there would be a large English population coming into the district, and he was much afraid, unless there was some one to stnnd between the two races, they would come into collision. 34. Did you, in 185 i, receive a grant of £500 from the Bishop of New Zealand for building a residence, and in 1858, £500 with which to buy sheep ?—I have given evidence on this subject four times, and have gone very fully into the accounts, which will be found printed in the Parliamentary papers ; but I cannot at this moment speak to specific amounts. 35. I believe a sum of £2168 was drawn by the trustees, and I want to get at this, whether the balance left over, after paying for the education of the children, is not sufficient to account for the improvements made. I will put it this way—Suppose education cost £1,000, would not the other £1,168 be represented by the improvements?—All that was not spent on the children, was spent on the estate; but I myself spent sums amounting at one time to over £3,000 in improving the estate, and every sixpence has been accounted for. 36. How long did you manage the estate for the trustees'?—Till 1869, when the trustees came to the determination to let it. The trustees then took a valuation of the estate, and gave me the first refusal of it at the price they fixed. 37. Who were the valuators?—Mr. Ormond and Air. Coleman. 38. Was Mr. Coleman personally acquainted with the estate ?—Tes; and Mr. Coleman had previously been the manager of it for me. He was not connected with me at the time. Having managed the estate, he was well aware of its value. 39. What was the amount of the valuation ?—£6oo was named as the outside value. 40. Did you make any conditions about the improvements?—l made the improvements, and reimbursed myself for amounts charged before the estate was let. There is still a small balance due. 41. Can you tell us where we shall find the particulars of those accounts?—Tou will find the early accounts in Air. Henry Russell's report, 1862, and the later accounts will be found in the report of the Royal Commission that was held iv 1869, aud in the report of the Legislative Council, 1875. 42. Do you think any one would have given a higher rent than you did, if the estate had been submitted to public tender?—l do not think so. Every one considered it was an extreme price. 43. AVhat were the improvements you made ?—There has been a quantity of fencing done, a large quantity of grass sown over the estate, and a house built. 44. I have been informed that the estate produces more grass seed than is required to sow the land. I have not been able to find it so myself. 45. Have you ever bought grass seed ?—Tes. 46. There were certain paddocks said to belong to the Church Missionary Society; were they included in your lease!—l1—I believe they were; but had the land been let to any one else, my dwellinghouse and a moderate extent of land would have been included. It is a mistake to speak of any of this property as belonging to the Church Missionary Society. 47. Have you received a grant at any time from the House for the school ?—Money was given pretty regularly for four or five years. Sometimes it came from the Bishop, sometimes from the Education Board. I think all Government money came through the Education Board. 48. The Committee, in 1875, recommended that the land should be placed under some department in the Government. AVhat is your opinion on that point?—l would rather not offer an opinion about it. I may add that since that recommendation was made I have submitted all my accounts to a Government officer—the Commissioner of Stamps, at Napier, who audited them. A few weeks ago they were laid on the table of the Legislative Council by the Hon. Dr. Pollen, who received them from the trustees 49. Ono of the petitioners wishes to have the property cut up into small farms. Do you think that would conduce to a larger rental, and also conduce to further settlement of the population ?—I would rather leave that question to those who are responsible. 50. Some evidence states that the property is worth £35,000, and that the trustees' idea is to give you the land for £1000 a year. Would that not be a very low rate of interest ?—I have never heard of such a thing from the trustees. If they could get £35,000 for the land I should strongly advise them to apply for authority to sell it, and invest the money in some other way. 51. Do you think it would bring £2,850 ?—I should be very glad to hear that any gentleman had given that rental.
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52. That would be exclusive of the sheep. What are they worth ?—I should not like to give an off-hand answer to that question. They are ordinary cross-bred sheep. 53. Mr. Seaton.] Is this land fit for arable purposes I— l think Mr. Johnston's statement is correct. A little of it may be fit for agricultural purposes, but a very little. 54. Mr. Sutton ] If the block was cut up it would still not be of much use except for pastoral purposes ?—The great bulk would not. 55. The land, excepting that near the school, is not first-class land?—No; speakin"-generally I should like to see some of the gentlemen, who deem it arable land, attempt to cultivate it. 56. Mr. Swanson.] Some of the natives complain that their children were not taken in ? I have done my best to induce them to come. 57. Is it true that the children were compelled to work on the farm ?—I do not think any native has stated it so. 58. That is not the question. The question is, Is the statement true ?—No J the children had not to work, except for their own benefit. 59. Were they paid for their work 1— No; they many years since cultivated potatoes, to be used by themselves, and work of that kind was made a strong point of by Bishop Selwyn aud Sir George Grey, that the children should be expected to do a certairr amount of work for their own benefit. GO. Is there any truth in this statement: that the reason the children did not go to the school was that those who were there, were ill fed, ill clothed, and improperly treated ?—I never heard of such a complaint till I came here. It is not true. 61. Was not Eenata one of the original owners of this land. He says in his evidence that he was one of the chiefs who gave his consent to the endowment ?—Neither Renata, Karaitiana, Henare Toinoana, nor Henare Alatua had any interest in the Te Aute school estate. It is, however, fair to state that Karaitiana, Puhare, Tareha, Moananui, and other chiefs offered me a block of the Ahuriri Plains, including what is now known as West Clivo, and part of the Big Bush, on condition that I would go and live upon it. Te Aute was considered more central for my missionary work, which extended as far south as Castle Point, and into the Seventy-Mile Bush, and for this reason principally the Ngaitiwhatuiapiti offer at Te Aute was accepted, and the Ngati Kahuhunu offer fell through, and that land was not reserved. 62. Were the two Hawke's Bay men, examined by Mr. Locke, the only men present, that they should be the only witnesses examined ?—No. Others were to have been examined, but the explanation given me was that there was no interpreter to go with Air. Locke, but that these two men came in his way, and he took their evidence. He would have taken more evidence, but was informed that the enquiry had closed. 63. Of what use would an interpreter be to Mr. Locke ?—I should not think he was necessary.' But I am not responsible for the instructions given, or for the reason given why more persons should not have been examined. 64. AVho instructed Mr. Locke ?—The Chairman of the Committee, through the Native Office. 64a. Could you give the committee a list of the other men you would like to have been examined ? —Tes. I can recollect four names. They are as follows :—Tamati Te Moruhaere, Paora Nikahere, Paora Temaihotua, Peni Te Namairangi. I could have named others had it been considered advisable. Wednesday, 14tii November, 1877. Me. G. Hunter, M.H.R., examined. 65. The Chairman.] The Committee wish to get from you, as one of the Trustees of the Te Aute estate, some information regarding the estate. Tou are one of the trustees, I believe ?—Tes. G6. The property at the present time appears to be let to the Rev. Samuel Williams ?—lt is. 67. But bis lease expires in February next ?—Tes. -68. AYe have here four petitions, but all are of the same character, and suggest that the estate should be cut up into smaller properties when the present lease expires and put up to auction. Can you state what are the intentions of the trustees in regard to the land ?—That is a question I decline to answer. 69. The matter has not been fully decided by you yet ?—No. 70. Which do you think, from your knowledge of the estate, would be the most beneficial course to pursue at the expiration of the present lease, to let it in one or many blocks?—l do not think it is a property which could be advantageously cut up into many blocks, 71. Supposing it were private property instead of being property on trust for certain public purposes, do you think it would be more advantageous to deal with it in one block or to divide it into two or more blocks ?—Do you mean advantageous in the way of realising income 1 72. Tes, and for the benefit of the estate?— The trustees have always recognised that they have greatly benefited the estate and trust, by having secured Mr. Williams to take charge of it, which he has done without any charge whatever. 73 I am speaking of the future. Here is a certain estate which has been rented by Mr. AVilliams for a certain period. The leaso expires in February next, and the question is, whether for the future it would be desirable to divide the block or to continue to let it in one block ?—I believe for the benefit of the trust, if a satisfactory arrangement could be made with Air. AVilliams, it would be much better to leave tho property in his hands. lam not in any way interested, personally, but as a trustee am anxious to do my best for all interested. I think it would be well to leave the management in his hands if a satisfactory arrangement could be come to. 74. That is with the idea of getting as many children educated as possible at as early a date as possible ?—Clearly. That has been our object all along. Of course we have taken into consideration Mr. Williams's services. 2.—1. 2c.
*». 8. William*. 13th Nov''1877'
Mr. 'a. Hunter M.H.R. uth Nov>18"-
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Mr. 0. Hunter, M.11.R. 14th Sent 1877
75. AVhat do you consider Mr. AVilliatns' services worth ?—I suppose they would be worth £500 a y Car . DU t; foe has never received any regular pay for acting as superintendent and taking charge of *ke estate- Lt would not be possible to get a more competent person to teach the Natives. 76. Have the trustees ascertained what is at the present time the value of the estate?—l believe you have some good evidence before you on that point. I presume you have considered the evidence taken by the Committee of the Legislative Council. 77. That appears not to have been accepted by the trustees ?—lt was simply got for the information of one of the trustees? -Mr. Stokes procured that information at the request of the other trustees. He is a resident in the district, aud as he was always coining backwards and forwards, and at the instance of his fellow trustees, obtained reports as to the value of'the estate, that information was put before us. 78. I see Mr. Johnston and Colonel Herrick consider that £1,500 a year would be a fair rent for the first seven years, aud that £2,000 should be the rent for the next seveu years ?—That was their opinion. 79. Messrs. Birch, Williams, and McHardy, consider that a rental of (CI,000) one thousand per annum would be a fair rental for a term; and a rental of (£1,800) eighteen hundred per annum for the second term of seven years ; lessee to bind himself, during the first term, to put up about ten miles of fencing, and to expend (£500) five hundred pounds in sowing grass seed ?—They stated so. 80. I suppose with these opinions before them, the trustees, at the expiration of the present lease, will see that a proper rental is obtained for the property ?—They will do what they consider best for the interests of the estate as they have always done. 81. Mr. Murray] It has been proposed to let Air. Williams hive the property for a thousand pounds a year?— Nothing has been proposed by tho trustees. The whole matter is stiil under their consideration. 82. Do you think Mr. AVilliatns has a preferential claim to a new lease?—I think he has ; but so far as he is concerned he is indifferent about the matter. He, too, felt it a matter of public duty to do what he has done ; he was assisted by his relatives, who lent the trustees money at a low rate of interest which enabled the trustees to erect buildings. However, he is perfectly indifferent as to renting the estate again. He is a man of means, and is perfectly independent. He has done a great deal of good in the district, and I know he is held iv very high estimation by the people in the neighbourhood. 83. How long have you been a trustee ?—From the commencement of the year 1853. 84. In what way have the accounts of the trust been kept ?—Tne accounts have been kept by Mr. Williams, and rendered to the trustees. 85. AVhat check was there upon the accuracy of those accounts ?—He had only to account for the rent. The old accourrts were all gone into at the time the Commission sat in the year 1875. 86. Mr. Williams states that he has been in the habit of reimbursing business expenditure out of the rental, and handing over the balance, if any, to the trustees ; but he seems to say there never was a balance to hand over, and that as a matter of fact there is still a balance due to him?— That may be, I believe. He has always spent more than he realized from the estate. 87. Who regulated his expenditure; under what authority was it made?— Under the authority of the trustees, but it was left to Air. Williams. There was only the rental, and he made that go as far as he could and supplemented it himself. 88. Did the trustees leave the management of the estate and its funds in his hands r—He has rendered annual accounts and vouchers to the trustees. Air. Stokes took a more active part in the management of the estate than the other trustees, because he was constantly going backwards and forwards to his staiion, he living in the same province. 89. He rendered accounts of the money which had been expended ?—Tes ; every year accounts and vouchers were put before us. 90. AVas there any estimate of the expenditure put before the trustees before the money was expended ?- -No ; everything was left to Mr. AVilliatns, he had only the rent to deal with. 91. It cost Mr. Williams more than the estate produced ?—Tou have his evidence on that point. 92. Do you know the amount of the balance still due ?—lt is not very much, I am sure. He has not occupied the estate for the purpose of making money out of it. 93. Perhaps you do not feel in a position to answer this, but I should like to put the question : What do you think is the annual value of tho property at present?— You have much better evidence on that point than I can give. I could not say myself. I have not been over the property sufficiently to express an opinion. 91. The Chairman.] I said just now I thought Mr. Stokes had got this valuation made for his own information, andyou seemed to think differently ?—Certaiuly ; because I had been in communication with him before he obtained the valuation. 95. Then, this paragraph in the evidence of the Bishop is incorrect. "I may state that the trustees had nothing to do with the valuation that has been made. The Hon. Mr. Stokes, as he was about to go to England, thought he should like to have an estimate of the value of the property, and he obtained these of his own accord, and they were forwarded to the other trustees?"— That is correct and not correct We had nothing to do officially with settling the valuation, but it was at our instance that Mr. Stokes pot it. 9G. Mr. Mclean.] You have been perfectly satisfied up to tho present time with tho management of the estate by Mr. Williams ?—AVe are much more than satihfied. We recognise that Mr. Williams has made great sacrifices with a desire to improve the estate and to benefit the Natives. 97. Tou are satisfied that the estate has been largely improved by his exertions?— That is manifest.
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98. Mr. Shrimski.] If trustees were to be appointed to manage an estate of yours, and they acted in a similar manner to that in which you have acted in respect to this estate, would you think that they were doing right ?—I think we have done our duty conscientiously. . 99. Would you allow your tenants to spend their rents without your permission ?—Mr. AVilliatns had full permission. 100. And did he spend it properly ?—Yes. He always produced accounts and vouchers at the end of the year. 101. Mr. Swanson.] Do you consider this as a private or a public trust ? Do you think it is exclusively for the benefit of the Church of England, or held in the interests of the public? It is held by the trustees in terms of the grant, and the purposes of the trust are recited in the deed. 102. Here the Bishop says, •' i am not aware that any private estate, such as Te Aute ?" The Bishop refers to a private estate, which might belong to you or anybody, but that does not apply to this estate. I think he is right in what he says. i 103. Then there is a reply in his evidence as follows : " That is to me, as a trustee, a matter of utter indifference; I and the other trustees act conscientiously in endeavouring to do the best we can for the Trust, aud we are utterly indifferent to outside opinion ?"—Quite so. 104. You do not think public opinion ought to be considered at all. You think you should only consult your own inner consciousness with reference to anyone else's opinions ?—1 consider it is a matter in which the public have no right to interfere. 105. Mr. Murray.] In the event of the trustees mismanaging the estate, to whom would they be responsible '.'—That is a question I cannot answer. 10G. To whom would you consider yourself responsible?—To the Supreme Court of the colony. Only very recently a case of the same kind came before the Supreme Court. I refer to the application by Wi Parata. 107. Who would proceed against you ?—ln the case I referred to, the Natives considered themselves aggrieved, and through their chief, made an application to the Supreme Court. The judgment of the Chief Justice and Mr. Justice Richmond, was published in the papers. 108. AVould that not make it appear that this is a public trust and not a private trust for the Church of England ?—I do not regard this as a trust for the Church of England. I consider it is a private trust. 109. Do you think it would be better to let the estate by public auction than to let it privately. AVould you not in that way get more for it ?—There is an element in the consideration of the matter, which we, as trustees, cannot eliminate. That is, we consider it is for the advantage of the trust that Mr. AVilliams should continue in the position he has occupied so many years, and in which he has done so much good, and has given his services free of charge. That is an important element for us to consider as administrators of the trust. 110. He has looked after the school ?—Aud the property also. 111. What would be the value of the services he has rendered to the trust ?—You know what clergymen and teachers generally get. I am sorry to say they do not get well paid. £400 or £500 a year I should think. 112. Mr. Seaton.] Mr. Williams said he had received a little over £200 a year. So you consider the trust has been irrdebted to him for a considerable time to the amount of £300 a year?—les, quite that. 113. I think the Committee would like to know what claims there would have been against the trust funds, supposing Mr. AVilliams had not acted so generously as he had done. The Church Society it seems gives £200 a year?— That is an English Society. The money does not come from New Zealand. We should have to engage a schoolmaster, and we should certainly not get one under £200 or £300 a year. Besides, Mr. Williams has this advantage :he was born in New Zealand, and and is one of the best Maori scholars in the colony ; and, moreover, he is thoroughly respected by the Natives. 114. The Chairman] The question has been raised, as to whom in the event of the trust being mismanaged, the trustees would be responsible, and you said the Supreme Court. Now, as this trust has been instituted under the authority of law, if the legislature at any time thought the trustees were not carrying out their duty, could not the legislature take the property out of the hands of the trustees and vest in whom else it thought proper?—l presume Parliament could do anything. 115. Parliament has the power of dealing with the trust as well as the Supreme Court?— That is a matter of opinion. 116. Do you recognise that the Parliament which constituted the trust has power to alter or vary it?— That is entirely a legal question. 117. It is a question upon which you do not feel competent to give an opinion ?—No; but I think the judgment given by the Supreme Court, the other day, bears directly upon the subject. Wednesday, 14th November. Rev. S. Williams further examined. Rev. S. Williams.] Before proceeding further, I hope the Committee will allow me to state that, when giving evidence yesterday, and when I was questioned as to putting the boys to work, I do not think it possible that any gentleman would suppose that I had been making use of the boys'services for my own profit; but it appears to me that Mr. Swanson had that idea, perhaps gathered from question and answer 45, in Colonel Whitmore's evidence before the Legislative Council Committee. I would like to state clearly that for many years I have given positive instructions that no schoolboy should be permitted to do any work on my premises, which are distinct from the school premises, or on the estate. Since it has been let, on one occasion three of the boys did volunteer to
Mr. G. Hunter, M.H.R. ,-^ .„„_
»,„ .« WW,*™* l*th Nov., 1877.
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Ren. S. Williams , 14th Nov., 1877
, assist in removing some of the hay in connection with the thrashing machine ; but, for that they were paid. During the past five years the boys have done no outside work except to take it in turns to . p re p are fi re wood after it is delivered on the premises, and do a little work in their own gardens. I nave provided an English man and his wife to do the heaviest of the work about the school buildings, and the boys merely assist them when directed to do so. 120. Mr. Swanson.] You tendered certain advice to the trustees as to cutting up tho land, and you have told us, I think, that the reason you gave that advice was that you expected there would be a railway station close to the property, but that the railway station had not been there erected?— Yes, it was promised by the Government, 1 do not know by which particular department, that the railway station should be close to the estate; but it was not placed there. 121. As a matter of fact, is there not a railway station on one side or another of the estate ? — There are two stations, each removed three miles from each end of the estate. 122. There is a good road running through it?—Along the edge of the largest block. 123. Is there a good supply of water ?—Large portions of the property are without water, but on the whole, it is fairly watered. 124. Was not a subscription raised by the settlers to give five hundred sheep to the estate ?— No, that is a mistake. I see Colonel Whitmore labored under a misapprehension in that respect when giving evidence. There was a smaller number of sheep given to the church endowment, but that was quite distinct from the school. 125. Have not the Government given some sheep ?—Yes. I have referred to that. The sums received from the Government I find to be these:—In 1854-5 I received £690; in 1850, £300 ; iv 1857, £300; 1858, £332; 1859, £250; in 1860, for 1859, £96; in all, £2,168. From the Bishop I have received £500. That was towards the building fund. Then I have received £500 from the Government, with which to purchase sheep. I bought 250 ewes. 126. And what became of the balance of all that ?—I kept a certain number of scholars during five years. In 1850, I kept 12 scholars for three months ; 1855, 10 scholars the whole year; 1856, 15 scholars the whole year ; 1857, 13 scholars for the whole year; 1858, 8 scholars for the whole year ; 1859, four scholars for six months, when the school closed. At the end of 1861, there were certain buildings on the place, and 250 acres of land fenced and under grass. The estate then owed me £1,035. That brings the statement up to the time of the evidence being taken by the Royal Commission in 1869. 127. How are the accounts kept ?—I kept the accounts, and furnished them with vouchers to the trustees. I think I said yesterday they were audited for some time by Air. Henry Russell, at the request of the General Government. Subsequently they were audited by Air. Stokes ; and during the last three years they have been audited by Mr. Fielder, Commissioner of Stamps, at Napier. 12S. Hon. Mr. Shrimski.] This property was given in trust for the education of Native children ? —Yes. Partly for Native and partly for European children. 129. How long since?— The land was first pointed out to me in 1853. 130. It was subsequently leased to you ?—Yes; in 1869. 131. At an annual rental of what?—£500 a year. 132. The money being devoted to what purpose ?—To the maintenance of the school. 133. How much has the Government contributed ?—£2oo a year for the last two years. 134. And there have been funds from the Church ?—-No Church funds. The Church Missionary Society have paid the schoolmaster's salary to the extent of £150 a year. 135. What is the average attendance at the school?— About thirty-four I should think. The returns have been regularly sent in to the Government every quarter, which show the exact number. 136. Have you ever made out an estimate of the total cost of each pupil ?—I have made a rough estimate that a child can be kept for £15 per annum exclusive of education and clothing, and, I think, servants. The £15 would be for board, house linen, and so on ; but I speak roughly. 137. Are you still supervisor of the school ?—I am under the trustees. 138. And have the children been so beneficially instructed by you, as to justify the expenditure ? —I would like the committee to get the reports of the Inspectors on that poiut. The reports have certainly been highly flattering. 139. Your lease expires in February next ?—Yes. 140. Do you think the present rent is a sufficient rent ?—Certainly not, in the present condition of the estate 141. What do you think it is worth ?—I have avoided giving an opinion on that point. 142. You appear to have been very disinterested in the matter ?—My object has been to provide an educational property for the district. 143. If you are so disinterested, surely you might guide the committee in forming an estimate of the value of the property ?—I would rather not express an opinion. 144. Would you be inclined to go in for the renewal of the lease?—l was asked by one of the trustees, in his individual capacity, if I would make an offer for it; but I declined to do so. 145. May I ask if this property were re-leased to you, what would you feel inclined to give ? If it was offered to me at a price perhaps I would take it into consideration. 146. Have you any claim against the estate ?—No. I have foregone any claim I might have. I might have made a considerable claim against the estate, but I have r o wish to do so. 147. You advanced various sums of money: How were they repaid you?— From the proceeds of the estate. 148. Did you deduct therefrom what was due by you, or did you pay in, and was it then re-paid to you ?—I kept the accounts myself, and I re-paid myself from the income of the estate. I then sent in the accounts, accompanied by vouchers. The estate has always been indebted to me, and even now there is a small balance due to me.
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149. Do you think it is advisable that the property should be cut up into small farms P—That is •* a very doubtful question. 150. Is there any land for settlement in that district for sale?— There is a large extent of country, and I suppose some of it may be bought at a price. 161. Do you think it would not be for the well-being of the district to cut the land up?—The property is in a peculiar position. The trustees have no power to sell. 152. I mean to let.—Then there is this disadvantage, that people do not care about building homesteads upon and improving leasehold land. If I were desirous of getting land to make a home upon, I would not take leasehold, if I could possibly get freehold. 153. Mr. Swanson.] Is this considered to be private property ?—Certainly not. 154. I gathered it was from what Bishop Hadfield said before the Legislative Council Committee ?—He is referring, I think, to private property in a similar position to the Te Aute Estate. 155. Mr. Shrimski.] I see Mr. Sydney Johnston values the property at £1500 ayear. AVill you tell us whether you consider that excessive?—I would rather not answer that question. 156. Mr. Swanson.] Do you not think that these educational endowments would be much more efficiently and economically managed, and be turned to much better account, if the State were to resume possession of them ?—I should very much doubt it. 157. Mr. Suttoni] Col. Whitmore in his evidence says, " the whole of the property is fenced ;it is sub-divided into a good many paddocks, and doubly fenced where the main road goes through it." Is that correct ?—The main block of it is fenced, with the exception of the edge of the swamp, which answers the purpose of a boundary fence. The road is fenced for one mile on one side, and for about a quarter of a mile on the other side. 158. The adjoining properties—are you occupying them ?—Yes; partly. There is one in Air. Rathbone's occupation. The block in my occupation is a property which I endeavoured to form into a Church Endowment Estate. 159. These properties are in no way connected with the Trust Fund ?—No. 160. They are of considerable acreage ?—Yes; taking them altogether, I suppose there would be 8,000 or 10,000 acres. 161. Is the Trust Estate fit for agricultural purposes. Can it be ploughed ?—A very small portion of it can be ploughed. 162. I see Col. Whitmore compares it with Mr. Tiffen's property, and says it is better than Mr. Tiffen's property. What is your opinion ?—There is some land at Te Aute which is superior to Air. Tiffen's, but the greater proportion of Mr. Tiffen's laud is agricultural land, and more suitable in several respects. 163. A Mr. Grace gave evidence before the Legislative Council Committee. Do you know how long he has resided in Hawke's Bay ?—A little over twelve months. 104. He never had any connection with the natives of Hawke's Bay previous to that?—No. 165. Ever since you have been in Hawke's Bay, you have been under intimate relations with the Natives ?—Yes. 166. Have you any reason to suppose that the Natives of Hawke's Bay look upon you in any other light than that of a friend ?—I do not think so. 167. Have you ever heard of any complaints from the Natives previous to the last twelvemonths? —The first complaints were made by Kairaitiana, in the House of Representatives. The only complaint I heard of on the premises, was when a boy refused to sweep the school in his proper turn. Another time, there was a little difficulty about getting a boy to take the mail-bag down to the train as it passed, with the letters of the whole establishment. I advised the schoolmaster not to press the matter, it not being one of tho school regulations. 168 You are still occupying the position of clergyman to the people in the Native districts?—Ares. 169. AVill you inform the committee what salary you receive ?—For some years I received a salary of £200, or a little over, per annum, from the Church Alissionary Society. There were no allowances for travelling expenses. For some years I have received my salary from the Church Missionary Society, and have expended it upon general Church purposes. Last year I informed the Church Missionary Society that I would relieve them of any further expense, as far as I myself was concerned ; but, at the same time I would continue the work as heretofore. 170. The boys at the school are principally Ngatiporou boys ?—Yes. 171. But you gave a preference to the boys of the donors of the land?—l have always given a preference to the children of the donors of the land, and for several months I kept the school almost empty, until I found there was a decided unwillingness on the part of both children and parents to make use of the school. I then invited the Ngatiporou people to send their children. 172. Do you think the Natives of Hawke's Bay are anxious to avail themselves of the means of education as a rule ?—I am sorry to say they are not, and have been very careless. There are the schools at Pakowai and Omahu. Both are empty. Renata, who has been most anxious that the children should be educated, greatly lamented their apathy in this respect. 173. Are you aware whether those schools were built by public funds I —Tes. There has been a considerable amount expended by the Government. Finding we could not get the Government to aid us in our building operations at Te Aute, the Bishop of Waiapu and myself took a considerable amount of trouble in showing Karaitiana how he could avail himself of the Native Schools Act. And seeing that my evidence upon this point had been contradicted, I procured a statement from the Native Office, showing that towards the Pakowai school the Government have given £308 for building purposes, and £342 towards the schoolmaster's salary. At Omahu, £348 has been paid by the Government towards buildings, and £448 towards schoolmaster's salary. 174. Both these schools are now closed ?—Tes. The Pakowai school has been closed since 1875, and the Omahu school more recently. 3.—1. 2c.
'er. S. Williams. Itb Nov., I8?7.
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175. Do you know if the schoolhouse at Pakowai is now used in any way ?—I have heard a report, but I do not know of mv own knowledge. 17(J j t is not use d"f or educational purposes ?—No. 177. How many of these Natives, who gave evidence before the Legislative Council, are interested in the land at Te Aute ?—Te Hapuku is the only one. 178. He resides withiu a short distance of tho school?—About five miles off. The others reside at distances varying from twenty to forty miles. 179. Te Hapuku would probably see more of the conduct of the school than any of the others?— Tes. None of the others have ever visited the school to my knowledge, though I have tried to induce them to do .so. 180. Te Hapuku said before the Legislative Council that ho could not say whether the children were put to menial employment. He would know if they were, would he not?— Certainly. He iB often at Te Aute. 181. Mr. Swanson.] I see in your evidence that you refer to Air. Wm. Grace, "of Mr. Russell's Repudiation Office." 1 suppose you had some purpose in making use of that term, and I should like to have a definition of the meaning of it ?—lt is a term usually applied to a certain office in Napier. I may say I first heard the term from Air. Henry Russell himself. He told me in 1869. 182. Never mind what he told you. AVill you tell me what you meant by the term ? Of course, we have heard a great deal about " repudiation "in the House; it is an ugly term, and I want to know what you meant to convey when you used the term ?—I can give you the ordinary English meaning of the word. IS3. Do you mean to say that undesirable practices are carried on iv that office?—I leave others to judge on that point. 184. Will you give us your idea of what the term means as you applied it?—l believe it is a term of opprobrium as regards Air. Sheehan and others.—If I had originated the term, I should have been able to tell you what it meant, but I did not. I got it from Air. Russell. 185. AVhat do you want me to understand by the term?—It is a term which is applied to a certain office in Napier. 186. Did you use the term as a slur?—I do not pretend to give an interpretation. I spoke of the office as it is known. It is known as the Repudiation Office. 187. Has it got "Repudiation Office" written over the door?—I have not looked at the name over the door. 188. Upon my word it seems very strange you cannot give a straightforward answer. Well, perhaps you will tell us how you got hold of the name?—I heard it from Air. Russell in 1869. He one day said to me, "I am now going in for a general repudiation movement. lam going to put the natives up to repudiate every single transaction that they can possibly get out of. A certain person has taken upon himself to make remarks about me. The community has sympathised with him, and I mean to make them smart for it." 189. Mr. Murray.] Are you in the habit of working land adjoining the Te Aute Estate ?—Tes. 19u. Then, I suppose the servants injour employ work backwards and forwards on the estate? — Tes. 191. It must have been difficult in that case to keep a statement of accounts?—lt is only since I have leased the estate that the properties have been worked as a whole. 192. Mr. Sutton.] Is not the term "Repudiation Office" the name by which a certain office in Napier is known ?—I have seldom heard it called by any other name. 193. Do you think if a letter was posted addressed to " the Repudiation Office, Napier," it would find its way to the office you allude to ?—-Tes. 194. Mr. Seaton.] Do you not think it is a term of reproach ?—lt is the name by which the office is known. 195. The Chairman.] I think you might answer the question "Tes" or "No?"—In using the term before the Legislative Council Committee I think I may say that I did not mean it as a term of reproach, but merely for the purpose of indicating from where Mr. Grace came. 196. Mr. Richardson.] Supposing a stranger were to meet you in the streets of Napier, and asked to be shown to the Repudiation Office, would you merely think he was using a slang term without meaning to be offensive ?—Tes.
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/parliamentary/AJHR1877-I.2.2.4.5
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PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. REPORT ON FOUR PETITIONS OF RESIDENTS OF HAWKE'S BAY, RELATIVE TO THE TE AUTE ESTATE, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE., Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1877 Session I, I-02c
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8,624PUBLIC PETITIONS COMMITTEE. REPORT ON FOUR PETITIONS OF RESIDENTS OF HAWKE'S BAY, RELATIVE TO THE TE AUTE ESTATE, TOGETHER WITH MINUTES OF EVIDENCE. Appendix to the Journals of the House of Representatives, 1877 Session I, I-02c
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