3

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24. The children, then, left of their own. accord, and not at the instance or at the wish of Mr. Williams ?—They left because they were not being educated. 25. Do you say of your own knowledge that no book-learning was taught them?—I did not see it myself. I only know they left. 26. Do you know of any children belonging to the tribe who originally granted the land being refused admittance into the school? —They were not prevented from attending the school, but there was no school for them. 27. Do you know of anything wrong in the present business management of the estate ?—I do not know anything of that question. 28. Do you know whether sufficient rent is being paid for the occupation of the land? —That is a matter for the people concerned in the laud to consider. 29. It is a matter for the trustees, you mean ?—For Te Hapuku and others. 30. You were not interested in the land given ? —No. 31. But although it is a matter for Te Hapuku, perhaps you know something of the value. If so, we should like your evidence on the point as to whether sufficient rent is beiug paid ? —I do not know what the arrangements about leasing the land are. 32. You have been over the estate ?—Yes. 33. Can you tell the Committee what sort of land it is ? —It is level; partly bush. 34. Is it all level, or partly level and partly broken, or what? —It is hilly. Some of the bush has been burned oft' and the land laid down with grass. 35. Are the hills steep, or of such a character that they may be ploughed?—They might easily be ploughed. 36. la the soil good? —Yes ; it is rich land. 37. What do you think would be the value per acre of the land ? —I cannot say. 38. Supposing the land were yours, and you were desirous of selling it, what would you take for it?— Perhaps £L0 per acre. 89. Supposing you wished to lot it, what would you expect to get for it?—£1 per acre. I have 300 acres in the vicinity, which 1 have leased at £1 per acre. It is the same sort of land. 40. How far is the Te Aute estate from Napier?—Thirty miles. 41. The railway runs through the esiate? — Yes. 42. Mr. Itolles~ton.~] Were you present at the original granting of this land by the Natives to the Governor and the Bishop ?—The church was at my place, and Governor Grey and Bishop Selwyn came there. 43. What was the arrangement then made ? —The talk about it took place at Te Aute, and then they caine down to a place called , where the arrangement was completed. 44. Was there any understanding as to who was to conduct the school? —I understood it was to be conducted by Mr. Coleuso. 45. Was there ever any understanding that Mr. Williams was to conduct the school ?—I may make a mistake. I am not clear. 46. Are you aware whexher there has been a wish on the part of the Natives that the school should be managed by any particular person? —Perhaps it was Mr. Williams, but lam not able to say clearly. 47. Have the Natives been dissatisfied with Mr. Williams at any time? Has there been any wish to change ?—They object to Mr. Williams now. 48. On what account? —Because ho does not conduct the money affairs properly. None of the local children go there. The children that go there belong to the Ngatiporou tribe. 49. Have you any reason to suppose that your children would be refused admittance if they applied to be admitted ?—Mr. Williams would not drive them away. 50. You say you are dissatisfied with Mr. Williams about money matters. What are the particulars of your complaint ?—I do not know. 51. Mr. Williams.'] You complain that Mr. Williams did not start the school when he first went there ? —Yes. 52. Out of what funds could he have done so? —I do not know. 53. Did you expect him to find the money himself?—I do not know. It was not the Natives that proposed the land should be given. It was the Governor and the Bishop. 54. Then, why do you complain against Mr. Williams ?—Because we did not know the reason why there was no school for so many years. 55. I suppose you have been over the Te Aute estate?—I have seen it from the road. 56. You stated it could be ploughed. Are you aware that there are a great many stumps and roots in the laud ? —Yes ; that is so. I said it was bush land. The bush has been burned off. 57. Mr. Hursthouse.] I understood you to say that a school had been built on the other side of the lake ?—Yes. 58. How long after the land had been given was that school started ?—Not two years. 59. Did the bulk of the Natives live on that side of the lake where the school was placed ?—No ; they lived on the other side. Mr. Williams lived in the pa at the time. 60. Was the school nearer the pa than it would have been if erected on the Te Aute estate ?—It was in the pa. Gl. Is it not possible that the school was held there for the greater convenience of the children ? —I do not know.

Tuesday, 30th October, 1877. Henaee Matua examined. 62. The Chairman.] You are one of the people who have petitioned the House respecting the Te Aute College Trust Estate. Are you desirous of making a statement to the Committee of your reasons