8

I.—3a.

218. Mr. Rolleston.~] Have you seen the buildings on the Te Aute estate in which the children are housed ?—Yes. 219. Have you been in them ?—Only in the schoolhouse. Not into the dormitories. 220. According to the evidence given before the Legislative Council the children are taught in one of the dormitories, and not in the schoolhouse?—I only saw the place in which the children were being taught. I did not know where they slept. 221. Out of what moneys do you suppose that place was built?—I have never been told. 222. Do you suppose that the moneys that are derived from the annual rent of the property are sufficient to build those buildings and to have also maintained the school P—Tes; because the land has been there for so many years. 223. What do you suppose the buildings cost ?—I do not know. I would guess £3,000. 224. Do you know what the rents have been ? —I only know about Mr. Williams's new lease. 225. If the rent had been £500 a year for six years, how much would there have been left for the maintenance of the school after payment had been made for these buildings?—I dp not know what balance there would have been, because the amount would be £3,000. 22G. Then, would it be fair to say that Mr. Williams was using the Trust money for hia own purposes if these buildings were put up from moneys derived from those rents ?—I have not asserted that Mr. Williams is taking the money for his own purposes. 227. Were you aware what were the conditions when the land was given ?—I understood the land was given for a school, and that the school was to be maintained by the land. 228. To whom was it given ?—To Governor Grey and Bishop Selwyn. 229. Had you then any knowledge of Mr. Williams ?—Mr. Williams was sent for from Otaki by the people of Hawke's Bay. That is how we knew him. 230. Was that at the request of the Natives, or was it one of the conditions of the land being given up, especially with Hapuku ? —I do not know that any arrangement was made that Mr. Williams was to be sent for. 231. Could you say that no such arrangement was made ?—I cannot say that no such arrangement was made, but I did not hear of it. All I heard was that Mr. Williams was invited to come. 232. It is a boarding-school. Do you know whether the Maoris, under any circumstances, do not like to send their children away from home to live at boarding-schools?—I do not know what objection persons have to that. 233. Which do you think they prefer —sending their children to another place to bo taught, or having them taught at the pa ?—I do not know which they prefer.

Monday, 5th November, 1877. Rev. S. Williams examined. 234. The Chairman.] The Committee are desirous of having your evidence, Mr. Williams, upon the petition of Te Hapuku in reference to the Te Aute College Trust Estate. We have before us a printed report of the evidence you gave before a Committee of the Legislative Council, and if you would refer to that report it might obviate the necessity of repeating the evidence you theu gave. But the Committee will be happy to listen to anything you may have to say ? —I have not much to state beyond what I have already said before a Committee of the Legislative Council. I feel convinced in my own mind that this petition did not originate with the Natives. I think I have said that pretty plainly before. 235. There is one point that did not appear to come out before the Legislative Council —that was as to whether the school was ever supported in part or wholly by aid from the Government ? —I showed, I think, in my evidence before the Royal Commission, that certain sums were given by the Government during the first few years after I went to Te Aute. The Government used to give me an annual grant of £300, which I got through the Wellington Education Board, to meet current expenses. I think there was a grant in addition. Then I had a further sum promised me by Sir George Grey for the erection of school buildings. 236. Hon. Mr. Fox.] Did you get that ?—No. Bishop Abraham called the attention of the Ministry to the fact that that promise had not been fulfilled ; and when Sir George Grey, on his return to this country, was at a meeting at Pawhakairo, Hawke's Bay, a chief named Paraone Hakikaki called his attention to the fact that the promise had never been fulfilled. He renewed the promise, and said he would see that the funds were provided. I after this heard from Bishop Abraham that Sir George Grey found there was a difficulty in the way of procuring this money, and that Sir George Grey would, for £900 subscribed by the chiefs of Hawke's Bay, give £100 himself out of his own private funds. 237. In going over your evidence given before the Royal Commission, I did not observe that you said that an annual grant was given ?—I would not be sure that it was then stated. There was an inquiry, prior to that by the Royal Commission, by Mr. Henry Russell. Then it was clearly shown what were the exact sums received from the Education Board. 238. Will you state now when the grant in aid commenced, and how long it continued ? —In 1854 I first received a grant from the Wellington Board, and I think it was continued for four years. I also had a grant from the Government of £500 towards the purchase of sheep, and I think, in my evidence before the Royal Commission, 1 showed that there were 250 sheep purchased. 239. That appears in the report of the Royal Commission ? —Yes. The sum promised towards the school buildings was never paid. Failing in obtaining any money for school buildings after Sir George Grey returned to this country, and after the destruction of the school buildings at Poverty Bay during the Maori war, the Bishop of Waiapu petitioned the General Assembly, asking for funds, and. failing in obtaining that, it was suggested that the money should be paid as compensation for the destruction of the buildings at Poverty Bay, but he failed in obtaining any assistance. 240. What are the purposes of the Trust?—The education of Natives, and, to some extent, for the Europeans. Part of the ground given is Native land and part Government land, so that it is to benefit both Natives and Europeans.