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establishment on shore. Whether a boy from a training ship with the possibility, perhaps, of not being so well morally trained as he would have been at a well-conducted establishment on shore, would be preferred by a captain to a boy who came from a good plaje on shore ?—I think the captain would prefer the training ship boy if he knew he had made a few voyages round the coast and learnt a little. A boy from an establishment on shore could not have any knowledge of seamanship. 151. You have thought of something that was not in my mind. You refer to a boy who has been in a training ship and cruising about the coast. In that case the difference would be between a trained boy and an untrained boy. I refer to a boy brought up in a hulk and a boy brought up in a good place on shore?—ln that case there would be little or no difference between the two boys. A boy on a hulk will only learn scholarship the same as he would at a school on shore. The case ot a boy from a shore establishment and a boy from one of the schooners referred to would be different. The boy from the schooner would not got sick and he would be able to steer. 152. Ido not seem to have made myself quite clear. Would 3'our observations enable you to form a decided opinion as to whether a training ship would turn out a boy for the purpose of a good seaman better than a well-conducted establishment on shore !—I do not think there would be much difference if the vessel did not move about. Such a vessel moored in a harbour would be almost the same, so far as the boys were concerned, as an establishment on shore. 153. Mr. Macandrew.~\ You would as soon take a boy from the Industrial School at Caversham as from the training ship at Kohimarama I—Yes. 154. Mr. W. J. Hurst.~\ Had you many boys from the Kohimarama training ship. You know there was a little vessel there. Surely boys brought up on shore would not possess the knowledge these boys had I —l believe they were taught to pull an oar. Ido not think the schooner was ever used to teach them seamanship. 155. Suppose we had a hulk, and the boys were put in one of these coasting vessels to learn real navigation and seamanship. Do you think at about seventeen they would be in a condition to be absorbed in the mercantile marine as ordinary seamen?—l should think before that age. I should say about sixteen. 156. I want to get a line between boys and men to be shipped as ordinary seaman ?—A boy trained in the way you have described could, I think, be shipped as an ordinary seaman at sixteen. 157. You ship in each vessel so many A.B.s and so many ordinary seamen I —Yes. 158. By having small vessels sailing about the coast, we can train lads up to sixteen, at which age, in your opinion, they will be able to get employment as ordinary seamen ?—I think so. Ido not say that ships will take them as full ordinary seamen at sixteen. I think, however, they will be glad to get them and call them boys for the first year, and make them ordinary seamen after that. 159. You say that owners hate boys, and are disinclined to take them. Do you refer to the class of boys we have just been speaking of —boys who have been properly trained ?—1 mean apprentice boys— boys who have to learn the work entirely. 160. If we train the boys up to a certain point there will bo a market for them ?—Owners will not then object to take them, but they will object to take apprentice boys without any knowledge. 161. Have you any knowledge of the Kohimarama institution. You say the boys were never sent outside ?—They never were, so far as 1 have heard. I believe they ware occasionally sent from Kohimarama to Auckland. 162. Were they not sent on trips to Kawau ?—I do not think so. Ido not think they ever went outside the North Head. 163. Of course a great deal depends on the skill of tlie men put over the boys. If the boys wwrekept in an establishment on shore, will it not be a difficult thing to control them and have command over them I —l do not think so. I think such an establishment could be worked well enough. Ido not think the boys would be satisfied if they were in a stationary hulk moored in a harbour. With a vessel moving about, I am sure they would turn out better men, for the}' will be learning something which they will be able to make their living by. Ido not think a training vessel moored in a harbour is the thing we want. They should go to sea and learn to steer and work a vessel ; and, as I said before, a small schooner could be turned to advantage in surveying and lighthouse work. 164. Air. Macandrew.~\ When electricity comes to be perfected there will be no sails required, will there?-—lf that is ever the case I think it will be a good while after we are dead. 165. The Chairman.] How long have you been to seal —More than half my life. I have been more than twenty years on the New Zealand co;ist, and ten years at sea besides this. 166. You have had a large amount of experience in sailing vessels ?—I have had some. 167. In the coasting trade t- —I sailed a vessel of my own upon the coast. 168. We have been speaking about steam vessels and sailing vessels. Is it not a certainty that for many years to come that a certain class of trade upon our own coast must employ sailing vessels ?—-Yes. Sailing vessels will not be done away with while many of us are alive, or while many of our children are alive. I believe they will get scarcer every year, but the difference will scarcely be noticed. 169. If you had to run a sailing vessel you would prefer men brought up in a sailing vessel to men brought up in a steamer ?—Yes. 170. Does a man taught seamanship on board a sailing vessel generally turn out a good steamer hand ?—These men make the best steamer hands, as they have some practical knowledge of the sea. That knowledge cannct be gained by lads kept in a harbour. 171. In regard to the children. You arc aware that there are two classes of children put in our Industrial Schools. One class is the criiuiunl t-lns,, consisting of boys who have been sent there for some actual offence against the law. The other class consists of unfortunates—neglected children, who.se parents have probably left them, taken to drinking, or sent to gaol ?—I am aware of that. The latter class you mention were the boys I tried to get. 172. You appear to have received the other kind?— Yes. 173. Do you think it desirable that these two classes should be mixed in our Industrial Schools ? Not if it could be avoided.

Captain Fairchild.

21st July, 1882,