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174. Do you think such a plan as this will meet the difficulty. Suppose we had a live training a vessel of the kind mentioned at Auckland and Dunedin, and a stationary hulk at Wellington. We might send the criminal lads to the stationary hulk, and keep the other boys on the live vessels ?—I do not ' think that would do. People would object at once, and say that all the bad boys were being sent to one place. 175. We might then keep the criminal boys away from the other ones?— Shipowners would be much more willing to take lads from a training vessel if it were known that criminal boys were not being sent there. The danger is that you may get criminal boys. I got them, and perhaps that makes me prejudiced against the Kohimarama training ship. They always sent me criminal boys. Some I had to send back, and others I could not manage at all. 176. Speaking of the objection to take apprentices, am I right in assuming that you refer to the objection owners would have to taking lads who had had no training I —Mostly. Owners do. not want to be compelled. If the apprentices had had some training, a great deal of the objection would be done away with. 177. Take the case of a lad of sixteen or seventeen, with a knowledge of practical navigation, and having a good character. There will not be much objection to him, I suppose? —None at all. 178. Take the case of the Auckland District. Is there any reason why a schooner should not be utilised in supplying the lights there at the Sandspit, Beam Rock, and Tiri Tiri ?—A schooner could do this work very well. I think they might also do some other work at the same time There is always surveying to be done. Every bit of spare time I have lam at this work, when some master has reported danger. It would be capital training for the boys. 179. Mr. Peacock] Outside the question of a Reformatory School for boys, do you think it will be desirable to have training vessels for the purpose of training ordinary respectable lads for the sea?—l do not think I quite understand you. 180. Would there be any necessity for training apprentices for the sea, if the question of reforming boys and providing for them had not to be considered. If it were not a question of dealing with de titute boys or boys sent for the purpose of being reformed, do you think there would be any necessity for a training vessel ?—I think if you are going to compel vessels to carry a certain number of apprentices you ought to try to give them a little training. 181. Cannot other means be found for teachiDg these apprentices their trade, than by compelling vessels sailing out of New Zealand ports to carry them I —Owners will object very much to being made to cany them. At the same time we must have seamen, of course. 182. Is there a difficulty with boys wanting to go to sea to get on vessels trading on the coast1? — Ships do not care to take them on. I think they would take them very much more willingly if they came from a training ship where they had been taught something of practical seamanship. 183. Do you think it would be desirable for the colony to have a vessel for the purpose of training boys as ordinary seamen so as to make them more acceptable to the owners of trading vessels t —Ships will not take boys now, if there were a training ship to which boys of the class you have leferred to could go for six months, owners would then, I think, be more likely to take them, and boys would no doubf ask to go into the training ship. 184. Is there any urgency for this ?—I do not think so, but there is no donbt that the race of English seamen is dying out. 185. With our vessels filled with so many foriegners the urgency of having a training vessel for boys not of a criminal class, is not very great in your opinion I —No, Ido not think it is very great. It would be a good thing no doubt but I do not know if it is really necessary. 186. Speaking of the other class of boys—those who are sent to our reformatories —you think if any good is to be done with them they must be in vessels which are kept moving about?— That must be done if you expect to do much good with them. If you keep them on board a hulk they will only learn what they could learn ashore. 187. Mr. W. J. Hurst.'] The vessels must be practical working vessels, so that the boys will understand their business?— Yes ; it' the lads are to learn anything of seamanship. 188. A boy could learn a great deal by the time he was sixteen or seventeen years old if he had been for some years on a moving training ship ?—Shipowners would then be glad to have him. 189. You are now speaking of boys of a non-criminal class ?—Yes ; people are afraid of getting criminal boys. 190. We must deal with the criminal bors somehow. Can you offer a suggestion as to how they should be dealt with ?—We might try to get them shipped, but then I suppose we have no right to put our criminals upon any one else. Ido not suppose there would be a great number of them. 191. Mr. T. Daniel.] Do you not think that these boys should be trained a little, and then have a recommendation to the captain ?—lf you mean criminal boys I must say that I should fight shy of them whether they had a recommendation or not. In one or two cases the boys I had from the Kohimarama School had behaved well in the school. Directly I had them they came out worse than ever. I was told that some of these boys had reformed, but they soon broke out again. 192. Mr. W. J. Hurst.] You are prejudiced, I suppose, on account of your unfortunate experience of these Kohimarama boys I —l admit that lam a little prejudiced. I only bad ten of them, and eight of that number turned out very badly. If my remarks upon the training school seem to throw discredit upon it Ido not mean to do so. Ido not want to throw discredit upon the management of the school, but I have simply told you my experience of the boys I had from it.

laptain Fairchild. 21st July, 1882.

Captain William. 27th July, 1882.

Thursday, 27th July. (Mr. Sheehan, Chairman.) Captain Williams, examined. 193. Ike Chcdtmm.] Captain Williams, do you think it would be advisable to compel masters of

I. 9.-3.