1.—9

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3d. for it, you are doing an injustice to the person who does not use the service. I think the rates should be based on the cost of the service. 450. Mr. Vaile.] You say that my system will not give a good financial result, and that you think on short distances my fares could not compete with your season-tickets?—No; I have not taken the question of season-tickets into consideration at all. I stated that your fares for short distances were not sufficiently low to warrant your expecting a very large increase in the ordinary traffic. 451. I think you alluded to single tickets ?—I said yesterday that the figures I was giving did not include season-tickets. 452. You see these reductions. The present fares are—to Eemuera, 7d. and 6d.; to Green Lane, Is. and 9d.; to Penrose, Is. and 9d. ; and Onehunga, Is. and 9d. If all these were reduced to 6d. and 4d. would it lead to no increase of traffic ?—I say that on short-distance journeys you may reckon that people generally take return-tickets, so that the reduction would not be so great as it appears from your figures. 453. You assume that ?—I do, because I think the principal number of single short-distance fares issued are to people who travel to the ports in ordej: to go away by sea. These people do not require return-tickets; but other people generally get return-tickets. Therefore I take that as the basis of my calculation. Mr. Vaile's average ticket is 5d.; ours, for the same distance, is 7-|d. : I do not think that in New Zealand that difference would have any appreciable effect. Mr. Vaile: It is the old contention, you see. They persist in dealing with return-fares as against my single tickets. Hon. Mr. Richardson: Mr. Vaile states that the railway authorities persist in comparing these return-tickets as against his single fares. As I understand the evidence of these gentlemen, it has been to compare what they have now with what Mr. Vaile proposes. Mr. Vaile : But you also have your single fares. Why not compare them with my single fares ? Hon. Mr. Richardson: Because the single fares are very little used now. 454. Mr. Vaile.] Your tables say they are very largely used. (To Mr. Hudson) : Will you kindly tell me why the season-ticket system cannot be applied to my proposals ?—Because it has never been in the proposals. 455. I have never gone into details; but I have said that the season-ticket system could be applied ? —I have simply taken the scheme as it has been submitted to me. 456. Can you see any reason why it should not be applied ?—The only reason is that it would further reduce your average. 457. Not the average of my single fares?—No ; it might not affect them. 458. I have always in my calculations given you the advantage of the season-tickets, and they have never been included in my figures. Will you tell me, if a man takes a season-ticket, say, to Ellerslie, can he make use of it to a shorter distance ? —Yes, he can. 459. That is an advantage which I did not think existed. But, as regards the issue of seasontickets on my plan, the thing] is as simple as AB C. Instead of issuing the ticket to each station, you issue a ticket to Penrose to cover the whole stage, or to Manurewa to cover the whole of two stages, to Papakura to cover three stages, and so on. Hon. Mr. Richardson : If you do not state the basis on which you issue season-tickets, how can anybody compare them ? Mr. Vaile : I have not sought to compare them. Hon. Mr. Richardson : Under the present system season-tickets can be taken to or from any station, and can be used at any stations as between where they are taken. Mr. Vaile, I understand, says, " I will not give you a ticket, say, to Newmarket; you will have to pay for one to Penrose." Mr. Vaile : I say you issue a ticket now to Eemuera, and that is all a man can use it. My ticket can be used over the whole stage. I should expect to issue four season-tickets under my system for one issued now. Hon. Mr. Richardson : On what ground? Your ticket only carries to Newmarket or between, or only as far as Eemuera or Green Lane ? Mr. Vaile : My ticket for the same fare would carry the whole distance. Hon. Mr. Richardson: Then, you would give a ticket for Penrose at the same rate as one to Newmarket ? Mr. Vaile : Yes, in the same way as I would issue single fares. Mr. Hatch: Mr. Vaile, seeing that Mr. Hudson has told us that you can ride from Auckland to Newmarket for a little over a penny a journey, your season-ticket, if it were reduced in the same ratio as your single fares, would only cost about a farthing a journey ? Mr. Vaile : I am not prepared to say just now what figure I should charge for season-tickets at. That would require a considerable amount of study. But it is not necessary: I merely want to show the main features of the scheme. Mr. Hatch : Presuming that you did have season-tickets and that you got four taken for one now, where do you expect to get the single fares from ? Mr. Vaile : I do not expect that all people would take season-tickets, but I should expect to get a proportionate increase in season-tickets as well as in single tickets. 460. Mr. Vaile (to Mr. Hudson).] Can you tell me how many family-tickets are issued in Auckland ?—I do not know. ,461. Would you undertake to say that there were as many as fifty?—No; I could not say. 462. Taking it for granted that season-ticket holders are, as a rule, people with families, do you think that cheap single fares would affect the travelling of these families ?—No, I do not think so. Ido not think your fares would increase their travelling in the slightest degree, because the fares are nearly the same. Our fare to Otahuhu is 9d., as against your fare of Bd.