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Mr. Ellis, of the Midland, &c. We did not succeed in our object, which was to improve legislation generally in railway matters; for we foresaw as men of business, with our experience and knowledge of the shareholding portion of the public, that, if this thing was to go on to the extent that was then contemplated, very serious commercial disaster might result. We went to the various railway chairmen. I remember going to Mr. George Hudson on that occasion, and he pooh-poohed us, and he said, " If you get Mr. Glynn, or Mr. Denison of the Great Northern, or Mr. Ellis of the Midland, to make certain arrangements, you may then come to me." By-the-by, he was connected with the Midland too. He referred us to those chairmen, and we went to see some of them ; but we made no impression. They said the thing must take its chance. They did not withdraw their Bills unless their opponents withdrew theirs. There was a great deal of antagonism amongst railway people at that time. What we saw would be likely to come to pass really did come to pass: Bills were passed in the most wholesale manner in 1846 ; and I have no doubtjjthat the commitments of the public in re those Bills was very largely contributory to the great commercial panic of 1847, in which the Bank Act had to be suspended; and. during that year and in subsequent years the railway property of this country was almost wrecked for a time, and great ruin was brought upon families who had gone into those schemes without consideration of the number of calls that were likely to be made upon them ; and the property, which is now to some extent a good one, and in many cases a very good one, was absolutely, for a time, as I said, wrecked. For [instance, the Lancashire and Yorkshire stock, which is now at about 134 in the market, fell to £3110s. or £32 per £100 paid-up shares without any further liability; causing, as I said, ruin to families. The Midland stock fell to about the same price. I myself purchased Birmingham and Derby stocks, £100 paid up, at £15 a share. I mention this to the Committee as an instance of the sad havoc which was caused by the indiscriminate legislation of that period. Not only did that punish the unfortunate families of the people who, in the country, had gone into these things upon the promise of interest, &c, but it reacted upon the money market. 444. Was the interest on those schemes paid ?—Many of them paid 5 per cent, on the calls; and the consequence was that the estimates to get Bills were all very much under the actual cost of the construction of the works of those companies, and it followed that when they came to pay interest upon the money there was a collapse—all the capital was gone, and they could not pay any interest. And I know that in Scotland many companies were instituted to lend money on railway stock during the course of construction, and they took as security shares, £20 paid up, say £50 shares, and every call that was made of £s—and5 —and they were made almost every three months : the stock fell more than the call, and those companies who had lent money upon j the original shares of £20 paid up, found themselves, in fact, instead of getting a security for the money, under a liability. In fact, there was a complete upset of railway credit and commercial credit in consequence. 445. The Committee are generally aware of all those facts; but what we want you particularly to state to us now is, what is your opinion with regard to the operation of the Standing Order —has it tended to cure the evils or not?— Yes ; we have heard of no such evils since that period. 446. Do you believe that fthe comparative freedom from such wild undertakings has been caused very much by the operation of this Standing Order ? —Very largely. 447. And you are strongly in favour of retaining it?— Yes, most strongly. I think that the breakdown of the Standing Order would produce a very serious state of things. You would have on a considerable scale the same state of circumstances ; because the British public, as Carlyle said, is composed of 34,000,000 —chiefly fools. The promoters of those companies are a comparatively small number of people, and, I am afraid I must say, some of them knaves ; and if you give them the power of promising people 5 per cent, interest for five years, they will not have the wit to see how it is obtained, but they think it is all right when they think it is under an Act of Parliament, or under the authority of Parliament; in fact, when they see the names of bond, fide directors published to the public in prospectuses, hopeful people will go on taking shares, and I have no doubt that very widespread ruin will be the consequence. 448. You admit that the present law had a salutary effect in putting an end to that state of things ?—I do not think that the violation of the Order has been to any very large extent. There are about £700,000,000 of railway capital, which we may take has been raised by the public. This is an average of about £14,000,000 a year, supposing it to have been obtained in the average way. It is not quite that, but for the last twenty years the expenditure has been equal to £19,000,000 a year. 449. Then that systematic violation of the Order to which the attention of the Committee has been called you think is rather exaggerated ?—I think it is very much exaggerated. I think that what has taken place with regard to the Hull and Barnsley line will very much tend to diminish any further evasion, because of course it is notorious now that directors are in this position, as the Master of the Eolls has laid it down, that they are committing an illegality in paying this interest; and I take it that if that law remains unrepealed the law must be good law as pronounced by the Master of the Eolls ; and whatever his opinion of the Act itself may be, and his is no better opinion than any other man upon that point, but in laying down the rule he has laid it down strictly that it would be illegal. I think, myself, the very fact of that being so, if these gentlemen put themselves into a false position, and perpetrate an illegal thing, they would probably be open to an action by the shareholders when they find that it is an illegality. 450. Notwithstanding that these violations have disappeared since ? —lf you take the £700,000,000 of railway capital, you will find that the violations are to a very small extent indeed. But the siispension of the Order would have this effect: People in the country who now can get a very small rate of interest, or none at all, from a country bank upon their deposits, will be tempted, upon the faith of an Act of Parliament, to withdraw their money upon notice, because they will be offered openly 5 per cent, interest for five years under the authority of an Act of Parliament. 451. Mr. Salt.] Would you kindly look at Questions 115, 116, and 117, in which an important