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a charge should be carried into a body, if fired at a close distance? —Yes ; and in such a form as the exhibit produced. 36. Ido not wish you to push your theory too far. Can you give any sort of distance at which a charge would carry a paper-wadding into the human body? I mean, what was the furthest distance at which a weapon could discharge so that the paper-wadding would enter the human body?— Well, I believe with that gun, the furthest we got it was about 4ft. 37. You have already drawn a distinction in your mind between the experiment on a part of a sheep and an experiment on the human body ? —Yes. 38. Do you think that there is a considerable distinction between the two ?—Yes. 39. And it is not safe to give this to anything like certainty in the way of theory ?—I may add that I did not send in an official report on my experiments, as I did not consider them sufficiently reliable. 40. Now, with regard to the singeing of the paper used as wadding, you say that in some of your experiments it was singed and in others it was not ?—Yes; in some blackened and others not. 41. Does that depend on the quantity of paper and the weight? —No; we used the same quantity every time, and it was the Evening Post paper we used. I did not attach any importance to the experiments made. I do not think they are sufficiently accurate. Ido not see how you could do it. 42. Mr. Lake.] At a distance of 5 yards would it be possible to make such a wound with the gun such as you have described, and as it was found to be by the hole in the coat ?—Yes. 43. The Chairman.] Have you seen the hole in the coat ?—Yes. 44. Mr. Lake.] In that coat there were three or four separate shots outside the main hole ?—■ Yes. 45. Do you think with a gun of that sort there would have been these scattered shots at 5 yards? —I do not see why it should not have been. 46. Did you make any experiments also with bullets ?—Yes. ■ 47. Did those experiments lead you to suppose that so large a hole as is shown in front of the coat could have been made by a bullet ? —No. We gave up the bullet theory at once, because we found the hole so much smaller in the coat we experimented on. 48. Mr. Jellicoe.] Did you see the coat before you made the experiments or not ?—Yes; before. 49. You know the nature of the tear that Mr. Lake has been referring to ? —Yes. 50. Mr. Gully.] How big was the tear in the back of the coat when you saw it first?—l measured the hole, and I think it was sin. by 2-Jin., as far as my memory goes. 51. Mr. Moore.] How many feet do you think paper would be carried if used as wadding into the wound at such a distance ?—I should say that you would carry it about sft. or 6ft., according to our experiments. 52. If this paper had been carried into the wound out of a gun such as this at sft. or 6ft., the clothing would be singed ?—Yes, it must be so. 53. The Chairman.] So far as I understand you, that shot was not fired by that gun ? —Yes. 54. Mr. Jellicoe.] Is that the conclusion at which Captain Coleman also arrived ?—Yes, I think I stated so. 55. Mr. Gully.] Did you measure all the holes made in firing at the short ranges?— Yes, we measured them all. 56. You still think that at 5 yards it would make so large a hole as is shown in the plan ?— When I got the coat, I must tell you that a good many people had been experimenting on it and operating on it. Everybody had been poking their fingers into the hole, and the hole was very much bigger than it was originally. It is now bigger than it was when I first saw it. 57. Mr. Moore.] You stated that the flesh of a sheep after exposure would be much harder than the human body ?—Yes, that is my experience ; that is what I believe. 58. In your experiments on the sheep, what distance did you find the gun carry the paper into the flesh at the longest distance ?—Between sft. or 6ft. 59. You said human flesh was softer and more easily penetrated with paper; it might be carried 9ft. ?—Yes, that may be so. Against that theory I have got a lot of resistance, and I explained that the human body could not resist that so much. My experiments were made up against the bank. Ido not form any theory about the front wound. 60. Mr. Jellicoe.] Was it fired in a downward direction?—l do not know ; I never went into that. 61. Mr. Moore] If the person was running away, the resistance and the penetration of the shot would be less on the paper ?—Yes. 62. Did you take any evidence to prove to your own mind that the man must have been running from the person who fired when the shot was fired ?—No. 63. You did not know but what he might have been really standing still?— No. 64. The Chairman.] Have you seen the stiletto that has been produced ?—Yes. 65. Do you think the cuts in the coat and other clothes were made by that instrument ?—The coat was so cut and dilapidated all over I could not tell what was supposed to have been done by the murderer and what by others. 66. Mr. Gully.] The murderer is supposed to have inflicted twenty-one stabs. Are you confusing these stabs with other cuts ?—There were many more cuts in the coat before I saw it. The only thing I had to go on was the paper-collar, and the idea I formed of that was, that it was not possible to have been done by that stiletto with one particular stab. We tried it very closely. 67. Mr. Allen.] Did you make any experiments?—l made two or three, but they were not satisfactory to myself—not good enough to form any theory upon. 68. The Chairman.] Do you think it was probably done by that instrument ?—I do not know;