B.—3b

28

30. You were taken up to the cell ?—Yes. I think Brother Loetus opened the storeroom, which contained clothes, old boots, &c. We went through that room into another room, where we saw a cell built on the side of the room. 31. Mr. Wardell.] Does that mean a piece of the room partitioned off ?—Yes. 32. Mr. Harley.] Two sides of the room formed two sides of the cell, which was built in a corner'? —Yes. 33. It did not go up the whole height of the room?—No; it was like a big box stuck up in the corner. 34. Mr. Bush.] Was there a special ceiling for the cell ?—Yes. 35. Mr. Harley.] What were the measurements of the cell ?—About 7 ft. high and long, and about 4 ft. wide. 36. Was there any means for letting light into it ?—Yes; there was a little grated aperture about 18 in. square. If you held up a book to the light you could read it. 37. Was there no furniture?— There was an old tin-bowl; no table or chair, seat or bedding. 38. Mr. Wardell.] What time of the day was this?—lt was past 12. 39. Mr. Harley.] Who was brought out of the cell?— James Maher. 39a. He was clothed? —Yes, but had no boots on. 40. Did you see any bedding anywhere ?—Yes; I asked about this, and was told that a mattress near at hand was put in. I asked, "What food do you give this boy?" Brother Loetus replied, " The same as the other boys." While we were there the boy's food was brought in. It was exactly like that seen downstairs. It was put aside, apparently, because we were there. 41. Could you hear what took place when Mr. Rout spoke to the boy? —Yes. He said his age was fourteen; that he had been in the cell eight days; that he had bread and water morning and night, and the same as the other boys in the middle of the day. 42. Was he asked how he was punished?— Yes. He said he was slapped on the hands with a supplejack —what is commonly called caning. 43. Did he say how often he had been caned during that period ?—I think he said five or six times. 44. Did any members of the Board express approval or disapproval of this form of punishment ?—Yes. You yourself said it was very cruel indeed shutting the boys up, and taking them out every other day to be caned. 45. Mr. Wardell.] Did he say he was taken out to be caned every other day ?—Yes, and Mr. Harley said, " This is torture," or something like that: "It would be better to give them a good thrashing, and be done with it." 46. Was this said in the presence of the boy.—Yes. 47. Mr. Harley.] Did Brother Loetus account for the boy being locked up for eight days?— Yes; he said, as Brother Augustine had previously said, that absconders were kept in confinement as many days as they were away. He also said, "It is the same as at Burnham." 48. Was there any other boy in this room or in the cell? —No. 49. Where were you taken to next ?—We asked to be shown the other boy, and we were taken to the downstairs cell, which was open when we got there. The condition of the cell was exactly the same as that of the one upstairs. That is, there was no furniture, only a bowl. 50. There was a boy in it ?—Yes, Albert James, who had absconded with Maher. He said he had been in about the same time as Maher. He was asked what food he had. It was a difficult matter to get him to speak. Brother Loetus kept on saying to him, " Speak up ! Speak up ! Tell what you get." . 51. Mr. Wardell.] Did that encourage him to speak up ?—Well, it encouraged him to say, " The same as other boys." This is what he said, as I understood it. 52. Mr. Harley.] Was this boy examined at the same length as the other one ?—Not quite the same length. 53. This cell is part of the building ? —I do not know. It is built under the stairs. 54. There was a place for light to come through? —Yes. I should think there was part of a window, which admitted light. Part of the window appeared to face the cell, and part appeared above. 55. On which side of the building were the two cells ?—On the west side. I think the lower cell would be particularly hot in summer time. 56. Mr. Wardell.] What was the size of the lower cell ?—I think it was longer, and a little higher, and about the same width as the upper cell. 57. Did the lower cell seem to be the same height as the other rooms?—l think it was. 58. Mr. Harley.] Was that all that took place ?—I said to Brother Loetus, " Why on earth don't you send these big boys out to service ? " I said this because Maher said in the letter read to us that he was so happy in the place at the Moutere for the two or three days he was there. 59. Did you or any of the members of the Board present express approval of the way the boys were treated ?—Certainly not. 60. Was the management of the institution praised at all by any of you ?■—No; not at all. 61. How long have you been a member of the Charitable Aid Board?— Since 1890. 62. Have you been to the institution on other occasions than this one? —I have been twice. I would not go any more because the surprise visits we paid were a farce. 63. Mr. Wardell.] How many times have you visited the school since you became a member of the Board ?—Three times, including the one now being described. 64. Mr. Fell.] Why did you not make a surprise visit that was not a farce ?—We did on the last occasion. 65. Why did you not make frequent occasional visits that were not a farce ? —Because we could never see the children in their natural condition as we wished to see them.