40

E.—3b

30. Who told you that ?—Brother Loetus. Brother Augustine was with him. 31. Did the floor and wall show marks where the cell had been ?—Yes, plainly. 32. Did you measure the dimensions from these marks?— Yes. It was 7 ft. 6 in. long, 4 ft. 6 in. wide, and 9 ft. high. 33. Can you say from the marks whether the ceiling had been sloped?—l cannot speak very positively; but Ido not think it was sloped. 34. Could the ceiling go to the top of the room?— No. 35. Then it was boarded over the top of the cell?— Yes; undoubtedly. 36. Did you find out why this cell had been boarded over the top in preference to carrying it to the ceiling of the room ?—No. I did not ask that question. It seemed to be tolerably obvious. 37. Can you say why obvious ?—Because there was a loft above. It was not an ordinary room. It was a room having a loft, with a ceiling shaped to suit the loft. It could not be made right up to the top. To keep boys in it was necessary that it should be ceiled. 38. Did you see the cell described as under the stairs ?—Yes ; the one looking out on the front. 39. Mr. Wardell.] This is the "A " room as marked on the plan?— Yes. 40. Mr. Harley.]' Could you give the dimensions of it?— About 10ft. by 4ft., 6ft. 9in. or 7ft. in height. I can reach 6 ft. 9 in. It was just within my reach. 41. How is it cut off from the height of the rest of the building ?—Part of it is sloped under the stairs. On my first visit I measured it, and on the second day I saw it measured by Mr. 42. Had it a window in it?— Yes. It was in the same condition the other day as when I first saw it. It runs through a portion of the staircase, being partly above and partly below the staircase. It is about 3 ft. by 4 ft. 43. Is the window barred ? —It has six bars. I think they are vertical. 44. Did you notice any signs in the walls of nails having been driven in with the object of fixing boards across?—l did not notice. There have been fixtures in the cells which are not there now. This is shown by marks. I did not take particular notice of the window in that respect. 45. Where were the other cells ?—Three were in a group upstairs. There is no doubt one was used as a photographic room. 46. There is a kerosene-room on the premises. Has that been used as a cell ?—I do not think so. It is a lamp-cupboard. 47. Have all these rooms proper arrangements for admitting light and air?— The room downstairs had The one under the tower, judging from the length of the bars, would have had a proper amount of light and air. The outer one of the series had enough light and could have had enough air. The two inner ones of the series would not have had enough light if they had been'used as cells. Ido not think they had. The outer one had. The two inner ones are not finished. _ ' , 48. Have all these rooms the appearance of being specially constructed for cells /— our nad. 49. How about the fifth one ?—From all the signs there it must have been built and meant as 50. Mr. Wardell.] The three, you say, did not appear to have been used?— No. Two are not finished. Ido not think they have doors. I cannot speak positively. 51. Mr. Hurley.] Two of the series of three. Are they dark cells ?—The partitions do not go up to the ceiling. 52. Is that the only light than can get in ?—Yes. £3. There is no window ? —No. 54. What are the dimensions of these cells?—l did not measure them. The outer one had not been used for a long time, apparently. 55. The two admitted as being used were the two on the outside of the building, under the tower and under the stairs? —Yes. 56. Is that the cold side of the building in winter? It did not get much sun ?—No, Ido not think they would get much sun. I think the position is west-south-west. 57. What do you think of that position for winter?—l should say it is about as cold, neither more nor less, than the rest of that side of the building. 58. To be shut in all day and night without means of exercise ?—Unless you resorted to means of exercise you would naturally be cold. 59. There would not be much scope for exercise ?—I suppose there are means of exercise which human ingenuity could invent; but Ido not suppose a boy would invent them. 60. Mr. Wardell.] I suppose they would be as cold without fires as other rooms ? —Yes. 61. Mr. Harley.] Was your Department aware of these cells before your visit ?—Yes, of one downstairs. 62. Were you aware that boys were confined there as long as a week at a time !— JSIo. 63. There are certain regulations in the Gazette that apply to Government industrial schools : do they apply to such private schools as St. Mary's ?—Constructively. 64. That is, you would expect the same punishment to be given at St. Mary s as at Government industrial schools ? —Yes. * 65. But it is not laid down ? —lt is not laid down in the Gazette. 65a. Mr. Wardell.] Do you mean that the regulations apply constructively to all private schools ?—Yes. I would rather put it this way : " could be made to apply constructively to all private schools under the Act." I may say that they have been made, in the opinion of the Department, to apply to the Stoke School,