41

B.—3b

66. Mr. Harley.] That is to say, the Department understood that the boys were being punish* at St. Mary's in the same way as at Government industrial schools ?—Yes. The authorities : St. Mary's held themselves bound to follow such regulations. . 67. Have instructions been given by the Department to the management of St. Mary's as i the form of punishment ?—St. Mary's have been asked a question as to whether they recognise these regulations which apply to Government schools, and they have replied that they recognise them. 68. You heard Maher and James say how they had been put in the cells, taken out and canec fed on bread and water, tea sometimes. Is that in accord with the regulations affecting Goverr ment schools ? —The confinement is not in accordance with the Government regulations. The cor finement allowed is three hours in the same day, but there must be a proper interval between eac confinement of three hours. 69. The Government regulations are gazetted, no doubt?—Yes. 70. Can you produce the Gazette! — [Copy of regulations produced and put in.] 71. And you say the punishment received by Maher and James exceeded that ?—Yes. Sol: tary confinement for more than three hours in one day, confinement in a dark cell, or at night, i forbidden—is contrary to what is laid down in the regulations. Any confinement, solitary or othei wise, in a dark cell is forbidden by law. 72. Is the punishment laid down in these regulations considered severe enough by the deparl ment?—It may be considered necessary to modify them. They are on the light side, in m opinion. 73. What is your opinion of the punishment as detailed by Maher and James : is that on th light or the heavy side? —First of all, I object to the use of the supplejack for a boy at all. It i used by many parents and some schoolmasters, but I think unwisely. I also think that punish ment on the hand, though recognised by public opinion as proper punishment, even when give with an instrument such as a strap or pliable cane, is improper. That is my opinion; but it i general nevertheless. Used with proper restrictions, it leads very rarely to harm. I think a stra is a better and safer instrument for strokes on the hand than a supplejack. It is not so liable t cause harm if undue violence is used in temper. I think all punishment should be administered o the fleshy part of the back. 74. With a proper instrument ?—Yes. There is practically no danger with a proper instrt ment; and if one garment at least is kept on there is no insult to the respect of the person. 75. Now, as to the punishment of these two boys?—It is excessive. I think it would b dangerous to extend the regulations much. They might be extended to four hours, possibly more but I would limit it to daylight. And I think an inmate confined should be able to call for assist ance at any time. 76. I gather that seven days' confinement in the cell under the tower night and day i excessive, in your opinion ?—Yes. 77. In fact, anything over a limited number of hours is excessive?—Of course, it varies wit! the age of the boy. One of these boys is a little under fourteen, and the other a little under fifteen There are very few there under ten years of age. 78. Do I understand you to say there are very few under ten ?—Very few. There might b one or two under nine. 79. Are they not small for that age ?—Industrial-school boys on the average are smaller thai other boys. 80. Is that because they are small when they go there, or because of the treatment they get —It is probably due to hereditary causes with a great many of them. Some of them are simpl; orphans. The very fact that they are industrial-school boys raises a prima facie suspicion tha their heredity is imperfect. Measurements and statistics show that their development is unde: the development of a normal boy of the same age. 81. Would a boy confined in the cell under the tower be in solitary confinement within th meaning of these regulations? —Yes, in my opinion. 82. Supposing a boy was shut up in the one below ? —Yes. 83. So that Maher and James were both getting solitary confinement ?—Yes, presuming tha they were in those rooms. Mr. Fell:] There is no doubt about that. It is admitted at once. 84. Mr. Harley.'] You have heard it said by the boys that sometimes when they were holdinj out their hands and would draw them back they would be struck across the back ?—Striking acros: the back is not outside the regulations. The instrument is defined. The supplejack is outside th regulations unless certified to by a medical officer as suitable. But I think a cane is the most suit able of all. 85. Mr. Harley.] You distinguish between a " cane " and a "supplejack"?—Oh, yes! Mos distinctly. 86. Mr. Wardell.] What is the distinction ?—A cane is perfectly pliable, and a supplejack i not. 87. And there are no knots on the cane ? —Yes ; but you might easily get a supplejack with out knots. 88. Mr. Harley.] Of course, such treatment as punching and kicking, supposing it occurred that is necessarily outside the regulations ?—Oh, yes. 89. And outside, of course, what would be deemed proper treatment ?—Yes. 90. As to the food at Government industrial-schools: have they any dietary scale ?—Wi could name the scale at any time ; but there is no scale laid down by the Department, nor do th< Department think it expedient to lay down a scale. There are general directions. 91. Would the Department expect such general directions to apply to such institutions as St 6-E. 3b.