E.—3b.

65. Is it an instruction to the director to consult him in the matter of clothing?—No directions have been given pn the subject. 66. But you would regard it as part of his duty to consult the Manager ?—lf I thought the Manager desired that, I would recommend it. 67. But hitherto you have not held that it is part of his duty?—l have not gone into the matter. 68. Does the same remark apply to food ?—lt does. 69. I understand you to say that the Brothers were instructed, in cases of severe punishment, not only to report but co consult ? —Quite so. 70. Then, in cases of severe punishment, you hold that the Brothers are required not only to report but to consult with the Manager?— That is what I stated. The difference is easily explained by the fact that industrial schools are altogether exceptional in our case, whereas the carrying-on of a day-school is our ordinary work. The question of punishment comes in in all schools, but there is no question of food or clothing in day-schools. 71. Do you not think punishment in industrial schools would have to be considered in a somewhat different light from the question of punishment in your day-schools ?—I quite understand that different regulations regarding punishment may be needed in industrial schools. 72. Has that been a matter of consideration in the past between you and the staff?— No. 73. Were you aware of the punishments that are alleged to have been inflicted at the Stoke Industrial School ? —Not previously to this inquiry. 74. The director did not report to you ?—He did not. 75. Do you consider that he should have reported to you?— Such cases, yes. 76. You were not aware of the use of cells to the extent to which it has been alleged they were used ?—No. 77. Or the use of chains?—l never heard of it. I may mention that, although appointed to the position I hold twenty-five years ago, there was an interval of four years during which I occupied a similar position in the British Isles. I saw it stated during this inquiry that padded chains had been used once, but it was the first time I had heard of their being used, and this was during my stay in Europe. 78. You are aware that a mode of punishing the boys—a form of corporal punishment used— was by strokes on the hand ?—I know that strokes on the hand have been in use. 79. That is in accordance with the general practice of the brotherhood ?—ln some countries, not in all. In the British Isles it is the custom. I may say, with reference to punishment on the hand, that the strap has been the instrument I have seen most in use in Europe. The cane, I know, has grown into use in the colonies, as far as I know, and perhaps in England to some extent, though I never used it. 80. You would not consider that supplejack in general was a suitable instrument ?—No, I would not ; and I was not aware of its use. 81. Would you regard it as somewhat irregular with strokes on the hand where accompanied or followed by strokes on the body ?—I dislike the strokes on the body. I know extreme cases may call for them. 82. Even with a suitable instrument ?—I dislike them still. 83. What punishment would you suggest at an institution like Stoke if confinement itself were done away with, except for very short periods ? What would you suggest to come into line with such feelings as you have expressed ?— The deprivation of privileges, such as are -granted to other boys, in the way of outing and picnics and the like. I think boys feel such things very sorely. Occasional outings, and recreations of course, occur every day, and may be curtailed. 84. Would you think that sufficient in the case of industrial schools of what we might describe as the reformatory type and in the case of a persistent thief? —I do not know what additional punishments could be given suitably by teachers, at all events. It might come under the care of Magistrates or Police Courts to treat these extreme oases. 85. Then, in the extreme case you would feel that the assistance of the police was necessary?—l do not know that that would be necessary, but I can conceive of extreme cases in which it might. 86. The cases lam thinking of occur nearly every day in an industrial school ?—I would not think that necessary in every-day occurrences. 87. I am referring to cases like absconding?— Privation of recreations and corporal punishment, such as I have described, with punishment over the back that has been referred to, cannot be objected to in extreme cases under the direction of the Manager. Ido not know what further you can do. 88. Can you suggest punishment which, in your opinion, would be sufficient, and which you could approve, for hardened offenders and absconders?—l do not know any punishment that would be a success in certain cases. Some boys will be found incorrigible. 89. Have you had any experience of any other industrial school than that at Stoke ?—I have not. 90. Mr. WardelL] Do your functions extend over Australia, or only over New Zealand ?—Over the Australasian Colonies. 91. How many schools have you ? —Thirty-five. 92. And you have only one industrial school?— Yes. 93. Mr. Hogben.] Are you aware of the diet given to the boys at Stoke ?—ln $, general way. I may say that my visits generally last two or three days, once or twice a year. 94. Are your visits surprise visits, or do the staff expect you ?—They may expect me, but my visits serve all the purpose of surprise visits, as they extend over two or three days, when I see the children doing all their ordinary work.

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