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90. The second male would take the Fifth, usually a class with an average attendance of 50 or more ; the third male the Fourth, admitted to be a very heavy standard, with an average of 50 or 60 pupils : would it not require three male assistants to carry on those admittedly heavy classes, the Fifth and Fourth especially ? —Yes. 91. I should like you to express an opinion whether, as a rule, a female teacher can successfully manage a large Fourth Standard : is it not better that a male should be in charge ? —Yes, I think so; if not the first assistant, one of the male assistants. 92. Mr. Stewart.] Mr. Hogben, the order of reference assumes the desirability of a colonial scale ?—Yes. 93. I would like to ask you, are you of opinion that a colonial scale is advisable? — Yes, decidedly. 94. Would you mind emphasizing one or two grounds on which you think that a colonial scale is advisable?— One of the reasons is simply a sense of justice. I cannot help feeling a sense of the injustice there is in the fact that a teacher in one district is paid 50 per cent, higher than a teacher in another district. Another thing that is more easily measured is this : that if you pay teachers in some districts higher salaries (of course, it is a question of compulsion, for the Boards generally cannot afford to pay some teachers salaries as high as those paid by some Boards) it is undeniable that the teachers will go to the districts where they are more highly paid ; and it amounts to this : that the children in one district will not receive so good an education as the children in another district. If there is not paid an average salary, a sufficiently high average salary, the profession is lowered everywhere. The profession in New Zealand—l will put it in a negative way —is not attracting to itself at the present time the men we might expect to be attracted, except in very small numbers. Again, of course, if a man wishes to be a teacher, if his disposition is to teach, if he is really an enthusiast, he will teach no matter how low a salary he is paid ; but there are a certain number of people whose choice is determined by the prizes. If you lower the salary you spoil the prospect, and you lower the profession. If the salaries in New Zealand are not raised the inevitable tendency will be one of two things : that the whole of the schools will be either staffed entirely by women, or nearly so, or that the standard of the profession will fall; and, if I may undertake to prophesy, I think the tendency has already begun, for young people of ability are not coming forward as might be desired. I think it will be a very bad day for the country indeed if we cannot get the same class of teacher as hitherto, for I think that we have very good reason to congratulate ourselves on the quality of the teachers we have here. At the same time, if something is not done the whole educational progress of the country will go back. 95. You are probably aware that in America some such process as this has gone on— i.e., that the male teachers (who are in the great minority) very often belong to a class of young men who aim at getting into one of the learned professions, notably the law, and who use the schools as stepping-stones to the university colleges: have you observed that tendency growing up in this colony ?—Yes; promising young men use the teaching profession as a stepping-stone to other professions. 96. Is it not a fact at the present time that every year shows a growing disproportion between the male and female teachers ?—Yes, but that is common throughout the world. 97. You think there ought to be a sufficient number of prizes in the profession ?—Yes. 98. Do you think that the highest salary attached to the largest schools in the scale you have drawn up can be considered a prize to draw the best men in the profession —£388 ?—Yes ; it is as much as we can afford. 99. It practically comes to this : that under the scheme which you have laid down as a basis for discussion there is one prize of £388 for the whole of the teachers of the colony, and so on ; therefore I would like to press this point very strongly : you are not of opinion that there is really a sufficient number of prizes to enlist the best young men in the profession ?—I think that in one sense there are ; it depends upon the standard you set up. If you want embryo Chief Justices, there may not be. Of course, there are the Inspectorships open; I regard them as part of the teaching profession. 100. Can you tell us how many schools there are in the colony with an average of over 500 carrying a salary of £313 ? —Thirty over 510, carrying a salary of £319 or upwards. 101. Is there not some provision in the regulations as to gazetting of certificates that you, as Inspector-General, may examine the credentials of any candidate from Australia or Great Britain ? —Yes, we have to do that. 102. I believe some ten or twelve years ago there were a great many applications from Great Britain? —Yes; fourteen or fifteen years ago. 103. Within the last year or two have those applications been coming in like that ?—No; they are dropping out altogether. 104. What is the condition obtaining with regard to payment of teachers in Great Britain nowadays : is the tendency to have larger salaries ?—The general tendency a year or two ago was to rise very quickly, but the present tendency is to rise much more slowly. In some cases London has gone back really, though I consider that the salaries paid in London, Glasgow, and Birmingham are higher than in New Zealand. 105. Since we are not getting outside teachers to come in, it must either follow that we shall have to educate more male teachers, or else we shall be placed in a serious difficulty to obtain male teachers, seeing that your report shows a falling-off of the male teachers coming into the profession : does that not tend to show that the present occupants of positions in the schools of the colony die or are leaving the service, and that it will thus put the colony in a difficult position to fill their positions ? —I do not feel disposed to go into that at present. As a rule, the male teacher teaches for life, the female only for a few years. 106. Can you tell me approximately how many male students there are in the trainingcolleges at Dunedin at the present time ?—1 could not tell you without looking it.up.

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