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J. H. POPE.]

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G. — s.

pass? —Leaving out of view the fact that failure in the examination may sometimes have behind it a training of very high value —a lad may have been trained and may not have been able to reach the goal, and yet may have received very great benefit from the education actually given—it might possibly be a very good plan indeed when Maoris reach a certain point, and it becomes plain that their minds are not worth continuous and very extended cultivation, to allow a divergence in certain directions, and to set the boys to learn industrial work. 32. Would you gauge it by standards?— You can hardly tell what a boy is going to be until he has got somewhere near the Sixth Standard. 33. May I suppose that is a matter for the teachers; we must assume that you have able teachers who are qualified to classify ?—-That is so. 34. Seeing that the learned professions are getting crowded, would it not be better to devote more time to the industrial branches, so that the boys whose parents have the land for them could go in for a system of education which would fit them for taking part in farming operations after leaving school ?—Yes, 1 like the idea very well. I should not make it seem, however, that this sifting had to take place just when the idea of a professional career for a boy had been abandoned on account of failure. Up to a certain point I think all boys might well be trained for a considerable time as if they were going to be, I will not say possible university professors, but merely welleducated men. At that point, then, it might be desirable that divergence should take place into something, the utility of which would be absolutely certain. 35. With regard to the health of the boys at Te Aute School, I suppose you took pains during the time you were Inspector to ascertain what their general health was?— Yes. 36. Can you tell us generally what the health of the boys in that school has been-—good or indifferent? —Well, it anpeared to me that it was progressively getting better as time went on. At first there was much more sickness than there was when I left. One does not mean to say that it was through me that this improvement came about. Great care was always taken about sanitary matters. I used to make it a point to grumble about the sanitary arrangements whenever it was possible and just to do so. The utmost candour was used in my reports about anything that seemed insanitary. 37. Mr. Hogg.] Do you think the boys at this school are receiving a good English education? —I do indeed. Of course, I have to bear in mind the fact that they have the great initial difficulty of working in a foreign language. It takes a long time to overcome, but a Maori boy who has gone through Te Aute—l. do not mean who has passed the Matriculation Examination, but one who has got into the highest class in the school—is most decidedly a well-educated young man. The same would hold of the class below. As you go down the classes, the "old Maori " and the difficulties arising from working in a foreign language become more apparent. 38. Are the young Maoris taught to read and write and to express the English language fairly well?— Yes, I think so. 39. Well, I want to know how it is that after leaving the College, and after having received what is termed a higher education, they are unable to'converse and to give evidence without the assistance of an interpreter?— That would arise partly from shyness. You might meet one or two like that; but it would not at all accord with what I have the best reason to consider usual and fundamental fact. Those I have had to do with have generally been found very good indeed. I do not think I have met the phenomenon you had to deal with. I incline to the belief that the Maoris referred to acted as most Europeans would if they had to deal with foreigners in a language that they themselves had not been using for some time previously, especially if the business were unusual and important. 40. Will you be surprised to hear that our witnesses who had been through Te Aute College, with the exception of an interpreter by profession, had to obtain the services of an interpreter in giving their evidence?— Something might be said in the direction that what was being dealt with by this Commission was of a rather out-of-the-way nature. 41. In the Te Aute School, for instance, they are taught to translate Latin into English, and English into Latin: Are they taught to translate Maori into English, and English into Maori ?— - No; they are not. I may say that it was my view at the beginning that that was a very necessary thing to do. Ido not think so now. 42. If it was necessary then, how is it that it has not been adopted?—l gave way. You will see in the earliest programmes that the boys and girls were expected to translate English sentences into Maori, and Maori sentences into English. Well, it was thought far better to have the thing on an Engish basis. My voice was only one in the matter, and the practice was allowed to fall out, rightly I now believe. 43. You say you consulted Mr. Thornton frequently as to the system of education: did you ever discuss the purpose for which this endowment of land was handed over to the Church?— Yes. 44. Whether it was for a superior school—what is called a grammar school —or simply for a good English school where the Maoris would be taught the English language?—Of course, this was the aim; but doctors differ as to the best way of reaching it. I must confess that lam surprised to hear what you say as to ex-pupils not being able to speak in English. Do I understand you to say that several such cases came under your notice in the course of this Commission ? 45. Mr. Eliott.] Friday Tomoana was the witness referred to by Mr. Hogg. He came before the Commission, and started in English, and then broke off into Maori: Do you know him? —Yes, and I should be surprised to learn that Friday Tomoana could not understand any ordinary English, or that he could not answer in English, I know a little about some languages besides my own, and if I meet any one who speaks one of these languages I always feel considerable difficulty for the first few minutes. In a while the " strange-language fever " goes off, and I get on satisfactorily enough.

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