G. HOGBEN.]

89

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chance—just as good a chance as anybody in the colony if he were as good in intellectual ability— would be to take English, arithmetic, elementary practical agriculture, and two or three of these three subjects—Maori, book-keeping, and drawing. Let him take drawing—that is, practical—because he has the chance of several branches, and can take the practical of drawing if he does not want to take the art side. So you have there, without altering the programme at all, a means of getting into the Civil Service. Well, if you wanted him to take up engineering, you ought to fit him for it. Engineering is a distinctly high profession, requiring a specific training in mathematics, mechanics, and other branches of science, it is very difficult, and involves very severe study to become a qualified engineer; and this boy who shows distinctly engineering abilities will not be unfitted because the instruction he has received in woodwork there will be exactly on the line he will want, and the science he will have taken up in agriculture will have begun the training of his reasoning powers. But he is one of the boys who ought to be transferred to an ordinary secondary school. I think I could show that you are not interfering by that method with the boy's career at all. You see there are a good many things people call specialising. They talk of specialising in science. You must give every boy as a part of his general education a training in science, and almost any science is as good as any other. The best sciences are the ones nearest to the facts of life. Agriculture is one of those nearest to the facts; physics is one of those nearest to the facts, and the best training in science would be given by physics or agriculture, which are the nearest to the facts of life. Language is a means of expression, and you can give just as good secondary language education by the English language as you could by any other language, using it as a means of expression of thought. 32. I think what you have said clears the ground for us very considerably, because it will be seen from that that the scheme as to agriculture and technical education is adapted, at any rate, for a very large proportion of the students ?—Y'es. 33. As to the equipment of the school, one notices that the school is not now up to date either in its accommodation, in its furniture, in its laboratory-appliances, and so on, ancKl think from what you know of Mr. Thornton and the Archdeacon they desire in every way to be advised by the Department as to what their school should be? —I can indicate pretty well what they need. 34. Would the Department be prepared to advise them on these matters?— Yes. The Department has not only given them advice, but has tried to persuade them to follow that advice during the last few years, and the Department has offered to give them money to do it. 35. May I ask whether the Department would be in a position to help them in finding money? —Well, it depends. There is an outstanding offer—and it is still open to them—as regards woodwork. The Minister has authorised an offer to them of certain money, which I think will be quite sufficient to pay for most of the woodwork. I think it would pay for five-sixths of the cost of the woodwork instruction, provided they used the boys to do the work, as is done at St. Stephen's. And in the case of agriculture, while I cannot commit the Minister, he has every sympathy with the idea; but I cannot say whether or not a grant would be forthcoming. That could be done gradually. No grant is given to St. Stephen's for agriculture. St. Stephen's has not gone very far. It has begun on the right lines. It has done the least expensive part first. You want a laboratory, you want an experimental greenhouse, and you want plots. You can dig the plots, and that practically costs nothing except labour. As for the seeds, you can generally get them as a gift from the merchants if you go the right way about it. There is no doubt the seed would not cost very much. 36. The Chairman.] To sum the matter up, what you say is that it is the desire of the Department to help the trustees by advising them not only as to the system of education, but also in regard to other matters connected with the school? —-Yes. 37. But you cannot give any definite promise in regard to financial help?—No; except in regard to the woodwork, as to which offer is still open. 38. Mr. Lee.] May I ask you if this school is established as a secondary school for the Maoris of New Zealand, and technical agriculture is taken largely as the basis of their work, what would be the aim of the school as to attainments —for instance, would the school work up for any diploma, or should it prepare for any university examinations? —I am sorry to say that the whole educational world still has "examinations on the brain." Examinations are not education. They are convenient sometimes, and sometimes they are inconvenient. They are a means of testing education. 39. That is the point of my question : whether it is worth while working up to examinations? —Not generally. It is well recognised now in England that the more you do away with examination, and the more you have a real efficient and helpful inspection the better it is for education. In Germany that is the fact altogether. People are still asking for examinations in England, but the whole present tendency is more real inspection and less examination. So at Te Aute I would not let them have the old plan. I would let them have the new —not too much examination. I would give examination for those who require it as an entrance to a profession or anything of that kind. 40. Who do you think should lay down the programme of work?— The standard would be set forth in the scheme arrived at, I suggest, by agreement between the Department and the school. 41. It would, I understand, include scientific teaching?—Oh, yes. The teaching should be secondary in character. 42. Mr. Hogg.] Have you had any complaints from the Maoris or others with regard to the conduct of the school, the education that is taught there, the nature of the accommodation, or the quality or quantity of food, or anything of that sort?—lhave had matters brought before me personally, but I have had no complaints officially. It is some years ago that 1 went round thirty or forty of the Government Maori schools with Mr. Pope. I had a good many conversations with representative Maoris, and in some cases I held meetings at which the Maoris were invited to speak their minds. In some cases they gave expression to their opinion in regard to the boys at Te Aute, but there were not very many opinions as to the character of the teaching. In two cases only was

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