G. HOGBEN.]

91

(*.—s

60. But do you not think that the translation of our leading English works —the gems of British literature, poetry, and prose—into the Maori language, and its circulation amongst the Maoris would have a splendid educative effect? —I do not see any object in it. 61. Would it not be a means of intellectual recreation for them?—lf you are going to teach them English in order to appreciate English literature, you do not want to translate the English into Maori. Translation may be a very good exercise if you know both languages, but to attempt translation before you know both languages is to attempt what has been attempted, I know, for a good many years, but what is practically impossible. 61a. If the translation of one language into another is going on, is not a knowledge of both languages being imparted at the same time'? —Only slightly; the method is fundamentally wrong, in my opinion. lam opposed, to that method. 62. Then, you say, you are opposed to such a thing as the Maori boys and Maori girls in our primary Native schools being required to translate from the one language into the other? —Yes, because it is fundamentally wrong, and because you cannot get any decent English so long as you do it in that way. 63. Should it be done in the secondary schools? —Yes, when they know English and Maori wed enough. 64. What is the benefit likely to ensue from that? —Well, the benefit is obtained in the extension given to the range of thought by the variation of the modes of expression of thought. 65. You do not think if this system was adopted in the primary schools, and they were taught to translate from one language into the other, that it would give them a much better knowledge than they now acquire of the English language?—No, and we have actual practical evidence to the contrary. The English in the Native village schools is infinitely better than it was when Maori translation was in vogue. In Te Aute itself they have been able to do without two of the lower classes that they had before, because the English of the pupils that come from the primary village schools is so much better than it used to be when Maori was used. 66. Has the experiment been tried in a practical way?— Yes; we have been leaving the Maori out regularly the last five years in order to improve the English. Mr. Pope and Mr. Kirk, before I entered the Department, had that idea, and when I came in with a strong conviction, founded on years of experience, that that was the right way to teach language, we all three worked together. 67. Mr. Pope, who has had a long experience, has expressed the opinion that Maori translation should be taught in the Native schools, and in such schools as Te Aute? —In secondary schools I have said that when the pupils get to the upper classes and get to know both languages they should have it, not as a means of learning English, but as a means of extending their powers of thought. 68. Do you think that the boys who have been taught at Te Aute in the higher branches of learning when they go back to their kaingas, where these higher branches are of no use to them, have a tendency to forget what they have been taught?— Everybody in the world has a tendency to forget that which he does not use, and the Maoris have the same tendency. 69. And if these boys go on farms, I suppose you will consider a good deal of what they are taught is useless? —I will not say that anything that develops the mind is absolutely useless. 70. But is the time and money devoted to it amply repaid ?--No, you may replace it by something more profitable; but it is not necessarily useless. 71. I. understand you would like to eliminate certain subjects, such as Latin and Euclid and algebra ?—Yes, because I could do better work in the time; but not because they are absolutely useless 72. Have you at any time suggested to the trustees of the Te Aute College that there ought to be such a thing as a science-room attached to the institution? —Yes, but they said they could not afford it. 73. Then, do you think instruction in science and physics would be preferable to some of the instruction given now?—l do not think instruction in physics particularly suits them. I substitute practical agriculture for physics. A certain amount of physics comes into practical agriculture, but to take up physics specifically would not suit them. It is not in such immediate relation to their past and future life as practical agriculture. 74. Have you considered what the physical effect on Maori boys is likely to be if they are applied to sedentary work rather than out-door occupations?— Well, that is a very large question. I have thought a good deal about it. I do not think, supposing an individual boy has had the kind of preliminary training that would suit him for sedentary work, that the evidence goes to show that the race habit would make him unfit for it, If the individual boy has had the training in the home-life that would suit him for sedentary occupation, I do not think there is anything inherent in the Maori, or in any other race, to make that particularly unsuitable for him afterwards any more than for Europeans. 75. The Chairman.] In your opinion, should parents have any say as to what their children are to be taught in these schools, or should it be left entirely to the authorities? —In the primary stage, no. You could not work such diverse programmes as would be involved in a primary school. I think the programme should be drawn tip in each primary school as will suit the conditions of the majority of the children. 76. In your opinion, is too much time taken up in schools generally in New Zealand in athletics? —No, I do not think there is. 77. You think it is desirable to attend to the body as well as to the mind?—l think there are some portions of physical training which should receive more attention. I think there should be a medical examination of every boy in every school. 78. Do you not think that boys and girls should be subjected to examination with respect especially to their teeth, for instance?—-A good deal of emphasis is being put on the teeth now.