147

A.—s

I have nothing more to add, only I wish to emphasise that I do thank Lord Tweedmouth for the kind way in which he is trying to meet our views, and I hope that with the advice of the Admiralty some good will come out of the movement we are attempting to advance. General BOTHA : Lord Elgin and Gentlemen, the Transvaal is in a unique position with regard to this question. We are inland and we have absolutely no harbour. 1 was nearly going to say our friends in the Mother Country always kept us well away from the sea. I have gone through this Statement, and the 177,000/. that is our expenditure in the Transvaal only indicates the sum we spend on volunteers. But there is another force in the Transvaal on which we spend a big sum of money. This is a force that was brought into existence after the war, and which is there still. It is the South African Constabulary, and that body costs the Transvaal about a mil lion pounds every year, so that our expenditure is really very much more than would appear from this Statement. On the item of expenditure on the Navy, we figure as nil, but the question arises with me whether it would be practicable to give a sum of money. I think the best way in which we at present in the Transvaal can assist the British Empire in general is to get the Transvaal to unite with the rest of South Africa in a practical way on the question of defence. The position is to-day that although we are spending very much money we practically have no reliable defence in the Transvaal. And we notice especially with regard to the recent rebellion m Natal that we are not sufficiently prepared for all contingencies. In South Africa we have a situation which may become a very serious one and a menace to our position, and if we do not set to work very carefully there, we run the risk that one day possibly half of the white population may be mown down without our being in a position to help them. Bearing this in mind, my opinion is that we should federate, at any rate with a view to defence, in order to remove the possibility of such a danger. 1 have not had the opportunity of discussing the question of a naval contribution or aiding the British Navy with my Government, and still less with the Parliament of the Transvaal, but what I have in my mind's eye to propose is a system of defence for the whole of South Africa, and if the Parliament of the Mother Country thinks we can aid the Empire in that respect, we shall be prepared to spend a large sum of money for that object. I think that at present we are so constituted in the Transvaal that we shall find it difficult to make a contribution to the Navy by way of a money payment. CHAIRMAN : Gentlemen, the First Lord of the Admiralty would like to say a few words in reply to the observations which have been made, but I think that he agrees that effect must be given to the request of Mr. Deakin, who has been called away by another engagement, that there should be another opportunity of resuming the discussion later; therefore I propose to ask Lord Tweedmouth to make his reply now, and I will make a suggestion with regard to the resumption of the debate when I mention the other arrangements at the conclusion of the meeting. Lord TWEEDMOUTH : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen. I think that the general discussion and the expressions of opinion on the part of the Prime ■Ministers who have spoken is very satisfactory. I think they form a good basis for an eventual agreement on the lines which I have ventured to foreshadow 7 . Of course it is impossible to settle details now and here. I hope that some of the Prime Ministers and their friends will come and talk over

Fifth Day. 23 April 1907

Naval Mekkvt. (Mr. F. R. Moor.)