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we never contemplated doing a cargo business across Canada. We want to help the transport of passengers and mails that way, and got them to and from England as fast as possible by that route. As far as cargo is concerned, any man doing business in the Colonies can make his own arrangements. He does not want any assistance by way of subsidy. What he wants is to get some of the charges upon the tramp steamers taken off on the Suez Canal, which is quite a different thing to giving him the benefit of that shorter route available. We do not want a subsidy for cargo steamers. Canada and New Zealand, at the moment, in order to give our people an opportunity of working up trade, are giving 20,000/. a year for tranip steamers —10,000/. each. It is not a satisfactory thing from our point of view or the Canadian point of view, but we do it in order to give our people a chance of working up a trade. Once trade develops that subsidy will be withdrawn, and the cargo steamers will have to work out their own destiny, as everywhere else, without the material assistance of subsidies^ But if we want to do a great thing for Great Britain and the outlying British countries, let us be prepared to pay the necessary money for it, and bend our efforts to bringing these countries into close touch with England, which can be done provided we are prepared to pay enough for it. If we are not prepared to pay for it, we cannot expect to do it at all. I support the resolution of Sir Wilfrid Laurier because it is in the right direction; but I would ask him to alter it in the direction of inviting tenders, and to provide for faster speed, and let us have the assurance from the British Government that they will help us. Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I have no objection to making some such alteration. Mr. LLOYD GEORGE : Before altering the resolution, perhaps you will hear what I have to say, as I have one or two suggestions to make. Dr. JAMESON : Lord Elgin, and gentlemen, this proposal does not directly affect us at all, but purely Australia, Canada, New Zealand, and the United Kingdom; but what does alarm one a little is Sir Joseph Ward's suggestion that unless something of the kind is done the " all red route " goes, and we fall back on San Francisco. Sir JOSEPH WARD : We must, it is our only alternative. Dr. JAMESON : Yes; these things are often done better piece-meal. I should have thought it was better for Canada to get a better service with the United Kingdom so as to compete with the United States. Sir Wilfrid Laurier dealt with a service between the United Kingdom and Canada. Then there is no reason afterwards for the alternative that Sir Joseph Ward put forward as between San Francisco and Vancouver. If you once had a fast service to Canada, and through Canada, then it might be a question of dealing with the second proposition as to whether a fast line should go across the Pacific to Australia and New Zealand. As to whether it goes to Australia or New Zealand first, that is a further question to be argued and settled, but in the meantime you avoid that horrid possibility of abandoning the " all red route " and entering into an arrangement from San Francisco. If Canada got what is suggested by Sir Wilfrid Laurier, a 24-knot service to Canada, then you begin on the other side to negotiate 15 knots, either 15, 18, or up to 20 knots, in the Pacific. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Under the idea which New Zealand has, and which I am strongly impressed with myself—and nothing that I know of

Fifteenth Day. 14 May I ill )7.

Mail Service to Australia and New Zealand via Canada. (Sir ; . Joseph Ward.)