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RKPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFEKENCE

The CHAIRMAN : And the life-saving appliances? Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Yes ; when we come to the question of internal fitting, then let it be clearly understood I shall press for the Colonies to have a voice in the- matt.-i. but T do not want to do more than to make myself understood that the remarks I am making are in connection with those points. Ilos. W. M. lIUIiHES: As I said last time, there seemed to be some misunderstanding on my part as to how far this motion was to go, but if it is to go just as it says it is to go, namely, a standard as to hull, machinery, boilers, and life-saving appliances, well, there appears to be no reason at all why a certificate established by the Board of Trade and accepted by them should not be accepted by us; 1 do not see any reason. I think that motion of Sir J. Ward's a very good one, and it is a very astonishing thing it has never been put in force before. But as to the other matters, what constitutes seaworthiness, we must discuss that matter. I suggest we might adopt this, and then proceed to discuss the other. The CHAIRMAN : Would the shipowners like to say something ? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I would like to say this: Mr. Hill's motion is not merely to establish a standard toi hulls, boilers, and machinery, but a standard to enable ships to come in and out of Australian ports upon a certificate which will be revised by the Board of Trade. Well, to do that it must be something more than what is meant by a survey-certificate within the meaning of Clause 2, because that is sufficient to get her out of Australian ports. Our Bill—that is the Bill we sat on—in part 4 "Ships and Shipping," Clause 191) says: "No mastel of a steamship shall take her to "sea, and no owner of a steamship shall knowingly or "unknowingly suffer or permit her to proceed to sea "unless a certificate of survey has been granted in " respei t of her. and is in force." Now. if Mr Hill's motion is carried with Sir J. Ward's, then, "certificate "oi survey" will include a certificate of survey by the Board of Trade. Very well. Now then, Clause* 187, as amended by me in pursuance of the recommendation of the evidence given by expert witnesses, will read this way: "The issue of a certificate of survey shall " in no way exempt the owner of any ship from main"taining his ship in a seaworthy condition." The object of making these surveys is ' not to relieve the owner of his responsibility. Now if Mr Hill's motion is carried, it practically says that Clause 193 of our Bill shall include surveys by the Board of Trade, or are acceptable by the Board of Trade, and I am not agreeable to that. The CHAIRMAN : Now I should like to hear the shipowner's view, and I shall ask Mr. Norman Hill to recollect that he has to express the opinion of the " tramps " as well. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: As the expression of the opinion of the Australian delegates has been asked I would like very briefly to say—and I hope it will be the last time I will have to say it—that so far as Sir W. Lyne's own opinions are concerned, whilst I may respect them, I cannot be expected to agree with them And further than that, when he speaks for Australia it must be recollected that the opinion of the Australian people, or even the opinion of the Australian Parliament is not known yet as regards the Bill that has been brought forward and referred to a Royal Commission The opinion of that Royal Commission, although unanimous on many points, is divided on some things, and the division is 5 to 4, and, therefore neither myself nor Sir W. Lyne cor any member of the Australian representatives can speak for the Australian people or the Australian Parliament. With those few remarks, to relieve myself from any responsibility that might attach to Sir W. Lyne's' remarks 1 only say I entirely agree with the proposal, and, in fact, I do not see how we can do otherwise than agree Mi. James Mills proposed that America should be asked to recognise vessels as complying with the American law which had complied with the Australian law as regards some of the items in this motion, that is lifesaving appliances. If -we expect America to recognise our law surely we should be expected to recognise the British law e Mi< NORMAN HILL: Might I say I do not think it is finite understood how comprehensive this motion

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will be if it is carried and adopted by the Board of Trade. The issue of a survey certificate to non-pas-senger vessels will mean that not only will they be inspected us regards hulls, boilers, and life-saving appliances, but also as regards their accommodation, because that forms part of the Board of Trade certificate as regards a passenger steamer, and the idea is in issuing the Board of Trade certificates to non-passenger ships that in a general way the same course will be followed, no doubt somewhat modified, and these non-passenger ships having a Board of Trade certificate will have complied with the requirements of the Board of Trade as regards not only the whole of the machinery and boilers, but as regards men and accommodation, and I presume the intention on the part of the representative's both of the Commonwealth and New Zealand is that these certificates will he recognised in Colonial ports if oversea ships visit those ports and discharge original cargo and load original cargo. But where other ships ;e in the coastal trade, I understand the intention is they shall be required to subject themselves to a Colonial survey in addition to the Hoard of Trade survey, and that may involve additional requirements. If ships engage in the coasting trade they, I presume, will be required to undergo a survey which will demand more than the Board of Trade demands. The Board of Trade certificate will be respected in the case of all ships visiting Colonial ports merely for the purpose of getting rid of original cargo and' load ing outside the cargo, no matter how many ports thev visit. The CHAIRMAN : I think we had not better touch upon that: that is one of the points we shall h.i discuss later -what is purely coasting and what is incidental. Mr. NORMAN HILL: I merely mention that as giving rise to the value that will be attached to the Board of Trade certificate. The CHAIRMAN' : I agree so far as the purely coasting trade is concerned we must give up that point.' Sir JOSEPH WARD: I take it that is so. If yon look at Clause 171 of the New Zealand Act vou Will find it says : " Every steamship shall be surveyed once "at least in each year in the manner provided in this "part of the Act, and no steamship shall ply or pro"ceed to sea or on any voyage of excursion unless the "owner or master has a valid certificate from the Secre- " tary as to survey, and applicable to the voyage or "excursion on which the steamship is about to proceed." They are exempted from that requirement under Section 185 of the Act: "Where a certificate has been "granted to any steamship by the Imperial Board of Trade, and is still in force, that steamship need not be"again surveyed under this Act." Tin: CHAIRMAN : And Sub-section t. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes, that says : "A steamship trading to or from any place beyond inter-Colonial limits, and which is not required by the Imperial Merchant Shipping Act to be surveyed and obtain a certi- " ficate, need not he surveyed under Section 181." The CHAIRMAN : And under 184, even if she had not a certificate. Sir JOSEPH WARD: I am quite satisfied we have the power under our Act that if the officers desire a further certificate they car, have it. What we are aiming at in the motion is to insure that when- a Board of Trade certificate has been issued, it should be recognised without the interposition of other Govern ments coming in to say you must have a different certi ficate. If the vessel is seaworthy and has already been surveyed she ought to be allowed to proceed to sea. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: This Board of Trade certificate is to be understood not to apply to any other than British ships, because a Board of Trade certificate is issued in respect of foreign ships not after inspection or examination or survey by the Board of Trade but upon statement by the Consul that the Act has ' been substantially complied with. That is not sufficient for me. Sir JOSEPH WARD: That is a foreign ship. This applies to British ships. ' Mr. NORMAN HILL: There is no Board of Trade certificate issued to foreign ships: they are excused,