18

A.—sa

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE

Hon. W. M. HUGHES': Quite so. Sib JOSEPH WARD : We could step in in that case. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: We are not accepting those certificates at all. Mb. COX : You would say the Board of Trade excuse, but you will not. Mr. NORMAN HILL : We are not asking you to accept the excuses. I fully realise that liners bulk very large, but they do not do the big work of the world; the big work of the over-sea trade of the world is done by the general carrier. We are entirely in disagreement with the Colonies as to what is the wise way of regulating that class of ship. We believe for the last 50 years the policy of this country has been very successful. It has improved enormously the type of vessel employed, their seaworthiness, and the safety with which they carry their cargo. Certainly, however strict Government inspection might have been, I do not think it could possibly have shown better results than the system under which we work. Our system with the underwriters has really worked for the purpose of safe navigation, and we have built up on that basis, we venture to think, the finest mercantile fleet now afloat in the world. We are entirely in disagreement with our Colonial friends as to the necessity for this Government inspection; at the same time we fully realise from our first meeting what great importance they attach to this Government survey, and it was because we realised that, that we brought forward the motion which stood in my name on the lines that if we complied with Ai the conditions laid down by our Board of Trade, that should be accepted in the Colonies. The CHAIRMAN : And have a certificate, too? Mr. NORMAN HILL: Yes. It is not that we believe that there is any necessity to subject all our cargo vessels to the Government survey. We would like Sir Joseph to add to his resolution, and make it so that it reads: "That it should be a suggestion to the " Board of Trade that they should provide for the issue "at the request of the shipowner of a survey certificate "in the case of non-passenger vessels." Our object is this. We quite understand from what has been said here that if a British vessel which does not hold a Government certificate goes into Colonial waters, she will be treated differently from a vessel which does hold one. It would be a mistake for the shipowner to be a party to any general recommendation which could be used in support of an admission on our part that there is any necessity for a general survey of all ships trading in all parts of the world. We hear what the Australian and New Zealand delegates think is necessary, and we shall have to meet with their views if we want to carry on their trade. But for the rest of our trade, we do maintain that our policy has worked very satisfactorily up to the present time, and if Sir Joseph would accept the amendment I have proposed, we should clearly understand that if we want to get the benefit of this reciprocity, the benefit of this excusing power in Australian and New Zealand waters, we shall have to undergo the Government survey. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Are you not contemplating an alteration of the Statute Law here? Mr. NORMAN HILL : No. I suggest the Board of Trade has now power. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I thought we were going to endeavour as far as possible to make a uniform law. You are suggesting that it shall be optional on the part of the shipowner that the Board of Trade shall, whenever asked, grant such a certificate. Well, don't you think it would be very much more satisfactory if the law were made uniform' Mr. NORMAN HILL : If the law were made uniform and sensible it would be. But we venture to think it would be a great mistake to alter the law which governs our shipping all over the world, and move it from the basis which, as we think, has worked so satisfactorily. Hon. W M. HUGHES : You say worked satisfactorily— satisfactorily to whom? Mr. NORMAN HILL : Worked satisfactorily with regard to loss of life, safety of cargo, improvement of the type of ship used. We have worked

up to now in connection with the underwriters, we have worked with Lloyd's and the British Corporation, and we maintain that is the best basis to get the best seaworthy ships, and the less we have to do with Government the better. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not hold with that principle for one moment. Mr. NORMAN" HILL : We are realising that. You tell us what it is you will not hold with in Australia. We- say allow the Board of Trade at the request of the shipowner to make a survey here where it can be done most effectively and most economically. If the shipowner does not subject himself to that survey, let him take his chance in Australian waters. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON ; Would the resolution not allow that without any amendment'.' because it would rest with the Board of Trade. Mr. NORMAN HILL: No; I think it is recognising a principle which we believe to be an utterly wrong principle, of subjecting every ship to Government survey. The CHAIRMAN : I think that is what Sir Joseph contemplates, that it should be a suggestion to the Board of Trade that they should provide for the issue of the certificate, not that we require it. Sir JOSEPH WARD : That's what I was going to say. I think it rests entirely with the Board of Trade and the shipowner. If the shipowner wants to have uniformity, the Board of Trade and the shipowner will agree with regard to the certificate. Mb. PEMBROKE : It is not the intention that this should apply to the trade of the whole world' The CHAIRMAN : Oh, no. Mr. FERNIE : Might I say a word about a class of vessel that has not been mentioned, that is the despised sailing ship. . I am afraid it would be very troublesome to obtain this survey in the case of a sailing ship foing to Australia, because when they start away from ere we do not know whether they will be in Australia or not. I would like to point out that the sailing ship trade in Australia is still of considerable importance. We want to avoid having sailing ships surveyed there as a matter of course. I quite understand if there are any defects, then they must be sur veyed, but we do not want to have them go there and be surveyed every voyage, because, as Sir William Lyne stated, he was anxious to have British and foreign ships on an equal basis, or to give preference to British ships. If this proposal were carried out, I do not see how you could enforce a survey on all foreign ships. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : It is very obvious what would happen. The CHAIRMAN : In order to make it clearer it has been suggested, although I do not think it necessary because I think the resolution as drafted makes it abundantly clear, it has been suggested it should be put in this form : "That it should be a suggestion to the "Board of Trade that they should provide 'facilities' " for the issue of a survey certificate," so as to make it perfectly clear to the shipowners here who are naturally very sensitive on this subject. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : If they arc- so sensitive as that, I do not know what they will be later on. I want to say this : I cannot for the life of me see why we should not have a uniform law, and I would suggest, and if nobody else will do it I will myself move, that it should be a suggestion to the Board of Trade that in the opinion of thjs Conference the Board of Trade should provide certificates in the case of all vessels. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I think that would be a mistake. If we unanimously recommend that the Board of Trade should provide for the issue of a certificate we meet the whole position of putting it upon the shipowners either to have the Board of Trade certificate or, by not doing so, to accept all the disadvantages. The CHAIRMAN : This may be done by an act of administration. I want you to bear in mind our very complex Parliamentary machinery. Last year we had a Bill with regard to shipping. We have not had a Bill for twelve years, and we probably won't have another for another twelve or twenty years. Yon