A.—6a

21

BBPOKT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFEHENCE

Sib JOSEPH WARD : How would it do to add the words, " But without affecting the right of the respective " Governments to require a survey in cases where they " think necessary " ? The CHAIRMAN : I don't think there is any objection to that. Mr. NORMAN HILL i That prevents us agreeing on a common standard. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : If you add a rider you will spoil it. Mr. PEMBROKE : Wouldn't it be better to say, " In case of unseaworthiness.'' Hon. W. M. HUGHES : If that rider is carried then it takes away all Mr. Hill has been trying to obtain. Sib JOSEPH WARD: I will make it "unseaworthy " ships." Mr. NORMAN HILL: ■Alleged or suspected unseaworthiness. '' 'The CHAIRMAN : I think it necessary to make another alteration. The Colonial Office points out that Canada is not represented on this Conference. They are a little sore about not being invited. No question has arisen, but I hear they are complaining, and they might complain if we propose something which would seem to be legislating for the whole Empire. so instead of saying "throughout the Empire," I think we might say, " should be accepted for " British ships in Australian and New Zealand " waters." Siu JOSEPH WARD : I have no objection to that. Mr. COX : The Canadians asked if they were to come to this Conference, and we said, " No, there is no ques- " tion affecting vou." This is a Conference between Australia and New Zealand and the British Government. If we say, "throughout the Empire," they will say. " We are concerned as well as anybody else." Mil. HAVELOCK WILSON : 'There are Canadian ships which go in for the Australian trade. Thi CHAIRMAN : This is how it reads now :—■ " That it should be a suggestion to the Board of Trade that they should provide for the issue of a survey certificate in the case of non-passenger vessels, and that standards as to hull, machinery, boilers, and life-saving appliances established by the Board of Trade and testified by current certificates should be accepted for British ships in Australian and New Zealand waters, but without affecting the right of the respective Governments to require a survey in particular cases if they think it necessary." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Before that is put, I should like to say that I think those words are words of limitation. What we want is simply to place the British ship with its certificate on exactly the same footing as the Colonial ship with its certificate. We inly want the same right. Now that seems to give us a right in particular cases other than those to which a Colonial ship is subject. What I think should be done is, let somebody draft a rider which will cover it. We will accept that now temporarily. Perhaps Sir William Lyne will allow the thing to go, and let an amendment be drafted that will cover it. I understand what Sir William wants. That does not do what is required. Mr. NORMAN HILL: Would it meet the case to say, "This certificate should be accepted for all purposes for which Colonial certificates can be accepted." Make it clear that our certificate is only in lieu of the Colonial certificate and subject to all the conditions the Colonial is subject to. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : What is your .interpretation of the word "Colonial"? Mr. NORMAN HILL : You will be issuing a certificate : a British ship comes to Australia without the Board of Trade certificate, you give her a certificate, she goes on trading in your waters, and in threemonths it is reported that the ship is defective. Notwithstanding the currency of your certificate, you order

vour surveyors on board, and if necessary she is condemned. Now if we provide that Board of Trade certificates are to have the same effect as your certiii.ate and no more, that would give you the same control over the Board's certificate as you have over your own. The CHAIRMAN : Will Sir William Lyne be satisfied if we carry this resolution as it stands and during tin luncheon interval two or three gentlemen draft a separate resolution and bring it up afterwards. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Do you mean as you read it with the added words': Tiif. CHAIRMAN: No, down to "New Zealand waters," with the clear understanding that a proviso is brought up immediately after lunch and carried as a separate resolution, or added on to this. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: I cannot see what objection there tan be to the words proposed ''. The CHAIRMAN : By Mr. Norman Hill? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : No, the words you read. Hon. W. M- HUGHES: 1 have an objection to them. They are clearly words of limitation. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: 1 beg my friend's pardon; they are clearly words keeping the rights we have. The CHAIRMAN : There is really no difference ..I opinion. It is purely a question of drafting. I think it is a pity the Conference should be arrested by a discussion purely on drafting. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I am not wedded to the words, but could not something be put in, so long as there is nothing taken away. Sib JOSEPH WARD: How would this do? Say " the Board of Trade certificate to be accepted in Australian and New Zealand waters as of the same effect " as the local certificate." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I am quite agreeable if it has the effect I tell you. The motion was then unanimously adopted in the following form :— "That it should be a suggestion to the Board of Trade that they should provide for the issue of a survey certificate in the case of non-passenger vessels, and that standards as to hull, machinery, boilers, and life-saving appliances, established by the Board of Trade and testified by current certificates, should be accepted for British ships in A us tralian and New Zealand waters, the Board of Trade certificates to be accepted as of the same effect as the local certificate." The CHAIRMAN : Now we come to the provision scale. I think Sir William Lyne said on the whole he was satisfied with the provision scale. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : No, I said I'd like to see what it is. In that regard I understand that Mr. Hughes objects to the scale of the Board of Trade. 1 have been through it, and I must say I cannot see much difference myself. Mr. Hughes was Chairman of the Royal Commission, and they may have seen some good reason for making the scale in the way it was, but that is a technical matter, and perhaps Mr. Hughes would be kind enough to say what he objects to. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not know whether I am supposed to criticise this in detail. I do not object to any particular thing. I say the recommendation of our Commission is a very suitable one for Australia, and it has been drawn up by a man who has had experience of Australian conditions. It has the advantage of being cheap. The CHAIRMAN : That is only for our own ships. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Might I point out in the Report of the Royal Commission which recommends this scale, it is only proposed to apply it to practically Australian vessels and to coasters, and therefore there is no difference between us. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Yes. that is right. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : It is only proposed to apply it to ships registered in Australia and coasters,