A.—sa

22

DEPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFBRENCE.

unless a vessel can for this cause be brought under the definition of unseaworthy. There is a very wide interpretation given to unseaworthiness in the Australian proposals. Mr. President, might 1 also draw at tent ion to the fact that we can make no effective provision on British oversea ships for any scale of provision. We could only see that certain provisions were on board. Alter they leave our shores, they are under the British law, and they can serve their provisions out in accordance with that law. So that there is really no opportunity for any difference that I see. The CHAIRMAN : 1 do not see there is any sub stantial difference in the scale. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not agree with you altogether there. There is a difference. But I should like to hear an expression of opinion from a British delegate as to whether he considers the statutory scale of your recent Act quite satisfactory. Anyhow, we cannot do anything ; we might make some suggestion. The CHAIRMAN : This is all we propose:— "That the Provision Scale laid down in the Im peiial Act of 1906 be recognised by Australia and New Zealand for use on British ships."* That is all we propose. Mil. HAVELOCK WILSON : In order to satisfy Mr. Hughes on that point I should like to say that although our scale is not quite up to my expectations and is not as good as I would like to have it; still, it is a great improvement on the old scale, and I think that if seamen get provisions of that quality and that amount they would not be very badly off. There is only one point that will have to be considered, I think, in connection with that. viz. : vessels employing Lascars on the Australian const. We have not touched the question of provisions for L.eseais. and I have no douht that the Australian people will certainly have something to say about that. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Do you say this is not to apply to all sailors '.' The CHAIRMAN : You could not give this to Lascars. Thev do not eat the same sort of stuff. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON: I have already said there certainly ought to he a proper scale of provisions for Lascars. The CHAIRMAN : As Mr. Havelock Wilson knows. I have referred to that. They are under the Indian Government, and it is not for us to provide for Lascars. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : When a man comes to our country and is employed in our country, it is a question for our country. The CHAIRMAN : I know: but what I mean is this : On the whole :hey are in a better position to suggest a food scale than we are, and therefore I would rather that the suggestion should come from them. This is the provision in the Act of 1906 we have for Lascars : 'This section shall not apply in the case of Lascars or natives of India or others not accustomed to European dietary with whom an agreement is entered into providing an adequate scale of provisions suited to their needs and uses. So it is an agreement for providing an adequate scale. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: What is an adequate scale? Suppose a Judge asks what is an adequate scale, what would you say. Why don't you say an adequate scale for English seamen? Because a sailor might 6ay, "I "want four quarts of beer a day; I want rump steaks "for breakfast." Why not fix an adequate scale for Lascars I The CHAIRMAN : That has been referred to the Indian Government. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Speaking for myself, I should not be in favour of allowing any Lascar who made a complaint as to insufficient dietary to be put off merely because his agreement said that the food should be adequate, and he said it was not. Some proper provision should be set forth—so many pounds of rice, and so on.

The CHAIRMAN : Oh, no; it does not matter what the agreement calls it; the question is whether the scale is adequate, and that would be judged by an Austialian Court. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : At present that does not arise, because it is between our two scales, the Australian and the British, and no Lascar scale is in question. Mil. HAVELOCK WILSON : If you have those ships on the coast, the question is bound to come up sooner or later : What scale will you apply ? Will you apply our scale, or what scale ? 11 is bound to come up under any circumstances. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : You could not apply either of these scales. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : Then they are under no scale. Siu WILLIAM LYNE : I do not think Australia wants them, and I do not know whether they will legislate for them. The CHAIRMAN : That will come later on, when we come to manning. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : It comes in this way : There are ships trading on our coast, and they have Lascars on them. They are coming to and from India and on the north-west coast, and we may as well express an opinion as to whether there should be a Statutory Scale for coloured seamen. The CHAIRMAN : I can see that this question arises on every item of the agenda, and that is why I preferred putting it in the separate item. The "question of the kind of vessel to which Australian conditions should apply, I put in No. 4 on the agenda, so I think we had better confine the discussion to that. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: You had better include in No. 4 what constitutes seaworthiness. The CHAIRMAN: "Australian conditions" will cover that, surely. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Yes; Australian conditions, generally. The CHAIRMAN : Whatever your conditions may be with regard to wages, manning, accommodation. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Each one of these is a separate heading, surely. The CHAIRMAN : This is a very comprehensive item. I quite see we cannot avoid discussing that, and we have to face it. Surely you would not object to this :— "That the Provision Scale laid down in the Imperial Act of 1906 be recognised by Australia and New Zealand for use on ships registered in the United Kingdom." ft is pointed out to me that will not cover the other Colonies. We might say "for use on British ships not • registered in Australia and New Zealand." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Why do you propose to make recommendations for Australia and New Zealand, and in some respects for Canada and other countries as well.' Why not either make these suggestions general throughout the Empire? The CHAIRMAN : Well, you cannot. You see, it is not an Imperial Conference. I wish Canada had been represented. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Our Government made a recommendation they should be. Sin JOSEPH WARD : If we look after our own in terests, I think we do pretty well. We cannot make it apply to the whole of the Empire. Mil. NORMAN HILL: Would it be possible to add to the resolution "examination of the stores under the "Act of 1906"? The CHAIRMAN : That is a separate point. Now is this agreed to? Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What is the scale for?