A.—sa

30

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Bom. W. M. HUGHES: When your oversea ships .any cargo, suppose they engage in trade, they would largely carry cargo, say, from Adelaide to Fremantle, and they would carry it on deck. Till. CHAIRMAN : 1 have been inquiring about the German provisions, and in some respects I agree they are better than ours, but the provisions apply only Io vessels the orders for the building of which are given after October Ist, 1905. You see the Germans have realised that difficulty. Sir JOSEPH WARD : 1 think it is a matter upon which a compromise is necessary, and I therefore propose : — " That the limit of accommodation prescribed byColonial laws should apply to existing vessels, except in eases where the Minister is satisfied that the character of the structural alterations necessary in order to comply with the limit would be unreasonable." There must be someone to settle where the alteration can be carried out. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: The Government of the country is the proper authority to appoint officers to decide that If you go into the court" it is a neverending business. Mn. NORMAN HILL: The- difficulty is. we send out our ships, and we do not know until we get there whether they can trade. Surely it should be decided here whether the accommodation can be increased. Sir JOSEPH WARD : You must have a little latitude. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : It should be left to the officers. Sir JOSEPH WARD : That is all right for ships to be built hereafter. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I think it is right in reference to ships built. Sir JOSEPH WARD: You cannot pull a ship down and rebuild it like you can a factory. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : You can alter the internal arrangements. Sir JOSEPH WARD : Our owners of New Zealand ships are doing that, but you cannot do it in all of them and not to the hulls of any of them. Mb. BELCHER: If Mr. Hughes' suggestion is adopted that would cover it—that in cases where structural alterations to the ship cannot possibly be effected that it shall then be permissible for an inspector and a medical officer to attest to that. And then the shipowner would not be under the obligation to alter his ship. 1 understand that is your suggestion, Mr. Hughes ? Sir WILLIAM LYNE: The proposal we are going to make is this, if the Minister is satisfied on expert evidence that it is not practicable to make the necessary alterations to give effect to the requirements of Paragraph A, Sub-section 1, of this section, the Minister may permit similar and equivalent accommodation to be substituted for the crew space, which does not fulfil the requirements of this Act in another part of the ship ; that leaves the matter in an elastic- way entirely in the hands of the Government. Mn. MILLS: I understand the provision to be that in cases where it is impossible to piovide the increased accommodation in the space provided, the shipowner can put it in some other part of the ship. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: What that means is. that the accommodation shall be on the basis of the 120 cubic feet; that is to go, anyhow. 1 have not seen the sub-section before, but I take it that it contemplates the erection of deck-houses for the- accommodation of seamen anywhere in the ship, provided they got the 120 feet. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: It means if the ship cannot be altered they can allow that to be dealt with in another part of the ship. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : That is no exception; it makes it imperative.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Not under the stringent regulation that it might have: to be done in a parti cular part of the ship. Paragraph A, Sub-section 1, says it need not be done. It says: "And make pro- " vision to the satisfaction of the inspector or official ■ for the adequate ventilation of the officers' rooms and " engine room and stokehole." Sub-see-tion No. 3 of Section 130 provides that the owner of every ship shall provide such sanitary and lavatory accommodation, including bathrooms, as in the opinion of a medical officer is sufficient for the crew. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : That does not fix any particular situation. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: 1 know it does not, but as Mr. Hughes said just now, this accommodation is, as a rule, and should be, provided in the forecastle. The provision is that the accommodation can be provided somewhere in the ship. It does not say where. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : If the location is not named in the Act, then so long as the space is provided, wherever it is provided, it is in accordance with the Act. Tui. I'll AIRMAN : You might treat your ere-w as first-class passengers. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: The object of this is they have to get it somewhere, and if the ship is so const rue-led that you cannot do it in one part, you can do it in another. That is going to be submitted to our Rarliame nt. Mb. DUNLOP: The whole point is, whether this shall be made retrospective. It seems very dangerous that an Act altering an Act passed two years ago should be made retrospective. The danger of such a position is demonstrated by the fact that our own •Government has never made such matters retrospective, nor have the German Government. Now it appears to me that, perhaps, a little too much has been made of this. Unfortunately, the life of a ship is not very long, and those old ships will very quickly be getting out of the trade. Then another point that occurs to me is, suppose you provide so much accommodation, the men are never in the accommodation altogether. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : When they are in port. Mh. DUNLOP: Which is very seldom; that is a mere point. But another point is that the seaman, after all, if he finds a ship uncomfortable will very soon leave her. MB. BELCHER : That is what he is doing now. Mr. DUNLOP: The very best class of ship will suffer if we make this retrospective. These large vessels would need an enormous alteration. Is it really a matter of flesh and blood and life and death, as has been suggested ? I think, gentlemen, we are making too much of it. I suggest as a matter of principle you should use a little latitude. It does seem unfair that two years ago you laid down regulations, and now you alter them. After all, it is a matter of money. You may say money is no consideration, but it is, as the cost may make it impossible. After all, it is only a matter of opinion whether the additional space is necessary. Your Government a few years ago did not think it was. I think a little too much has been made of this matter, and you ought to be very careful in departing from the laid-down principle, and not make this retrospective. Mb. BELCHER: I think there is too much being made of what the Federal Government suggested two years ago. What I think has happened in the mean time is this, that the evidence which has been brought before the Royal Commission that was set up by the Commonwealth, and the examination they have 'made has opened their eyes to such an extent as to convince I heni that what they are suggesting is absolutely essential to the well-being of the men who man the mercantile marine. It is not only a matter of space, either cubic or floor, it is also a matter of where some of the e row's living quarters are situated. Now, to give you one en two eases, concrete ones, of where men have to live in vessels that I know myself, vessels trading on the New Zealand coast. Let me explain. The men coming off watch from the stokehole have to go through