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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

an alley way, they have to climb up to the ship's upper deck, they then have to proceed along the main deck, which is exposed to all the fury of the elements and is the most dangerous part of the ship when driving into a head sea, they have to go right forward, have- to pass the entrance to the steerage accommodation, and then they come to an iron scuttle where they reach their own accommodation, and then they have to go down a flight of steps and then a ladder of 10 or 12 steps. These ladders are almost perpendicular, and I say that is no place to have men stowed away; and it is a well-known fact that the men have sometimes to remain in the stokehole because they cannot reach their own quarters. I say it is essential that the Board e>f Trade officials should see that the men are not only well treated, in so far as space is concerned, but they should also exercise a judicious supervision over the portions of the vessel where the crew are located. There are other vessels in New Zealand which, if they are going to be allowed to run under the conditions that obtain at the present time, the shipowners w ill probably find them laid up, and they will get no crew to go into them at all. 'The alterations will have io he made sooner or later. I indorse the remark that it is an important matter in so far as our mercantile marine is concerned. It is almost impossible in Australia or New Zealand to get native-born people to go to sea, and, so far as I can understand, the British is a diminishing quantity. The CHAIRM \N : No, there has been an increase of about 6,000. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: But you do not give the increase of tonnage? Tin-: CHAIRMAN : I am answering the question put by Mr. Belcher. Mr. BELCHER : If he is not diminishing, the alien is on the increase. The CHAIRMAN : If you include the Lascar, yes. Mu. BELCHEB : No, no, for they are all aliens. The CHAIRMAN : No ; he is a British subject. Mr. BELCHER : Is he treated as a British subject? The CHAIRMAN : That is a different point. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Would you say that the (.000 that have increased since 1000, have increased pro rata of the population. The CHAIRMAN : Oh, no. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Have they increased proportionately to the increased tonnage? The CHAIRMAN : No. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: As a matter of fact, it is the only industry that shows a diminishing rate. Mr. DUNLOP : How can we expect that the seamen would increase proportionately, looking to the recent vast increased tonnage of the Empire ? The CHAIRMAN : You will see the point put in the " Shipowners' Memorandum." You will remember in the last few years we have increased enormously the number e>f seamen in our Navy—from 70.000 to 129,000 in the British Navy—that has made- a great difference in the supply. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Can you show us one other industry that puts forward as an excuse the fact that the Admiralty and the Army are taking the men, because if the Admiralty takes the cream of the men for the sea, the Army might be said to take the cream of the men for the Army. I think it is a very poor cause, indeed, that looks to find a way out of the difficulty by saying that the Admiralty has taken the cream of the men. As a matter of fact, there would be no difficulty at all in getting British seamen provided they paid a decent wage and gave him a decent place to live in—better than a dog kennel. I think the question of accommodation is the most important point we can deal with. The CHAIRMAN: Take naval seamen; I am told they are exceedingly well paid, and their accommodation is all right: but they have great difficulty in getting them.

Mu. HAVELOCK WILSON: The reason of that is because there an- many better opportunities on shore to earn better wages. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: The evidence given before our Commission was, that in Germany they had few, if any. desertions. Mr. Bonar gave evidence that il was frequently the- ease that the father was followed by his son and his grandson in the same service. The CHAIRMAN : You are talking about the Norel deutscher; you are quoting a first-class German steamship : they have not a great tramp business like ours. It is not a fail comparison. Mb. KERN IE : You might say the same about the I 'iinard. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I have not been on a Cunard, but I have be.-n on an Orient. Some of the acconimo dation on the ships of the Orient Line is very inadequate. ■Sm JOSEPH WARD: Might I be allowed to ask the British shipowntis who are here whether the compromise I have suggested is agreeable to them. I want to take the opportunity of saying that when the law which was put on the Statute Book in 1903 in New Zealand, before that was put into operation, we had a Committee sitting for two sessions. It gave a minimum of 72 feet and a maximum of 120 feet; that was taken from the British law, and we did not make it retrospective in its application. In our Parliament we are strongly averse to retrospective legislation. All classes in our Parliament are generally opposed to it, and for thai reason I want, if possible, to see something done to improve the position of the sailor, but I want to guard myself as a representative man front affirming a matter of principle we usually oppose in New Zealand. If the suggestion I have made is agreeable to the gi-ntlemen round the table, we get at this position, and I would put it to Sir William Lyne as an experienced Minister. What the Minister has to guard against is the attempt on the part of an official to do that which is going to be unfair or unjust to interests which ought to be protected. My belief is, that if something of the kind were done, where it is not an unreasonable request that an alteration should be made, and if we safeguarded it by giving the people concerned the right of appeal to somebody, then we go a long way to protect both the seaman and shipowner. And for my own part, much as I should like to see advanced legislation put upon the Statute Book in the general interest of seamen. yet, speaking for the Government of New Zealand, I am certain we will not make a law that would break contracts of any kind. What I have suggested as a compromise, is practically the suggestion of Mr. Hughes and myself. Alterations should be made, and in addition to that, to insure reasonable safety for interests we have a right to consider, we should give a right of appeal to somebody, I suggest the Supreme Court. If the representatives of the shipowners are averse to that, well, for my own part. I cannot vote for retrospective legislation, and the other members of the delegation from New Zealand, who have the same independence here that I profess to exercise, must, of course', speak for themselves. We want to do something from a New Zealand standpoint that we can ask our country to indorse. I am quiteprepared if necessary to withdraw the motion, but I moved it with the hope of having something settled. The CHAIRMAN : We have arrived at a very difficult stage of the proceedings, and I should like the shipowners to put their heads together Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I think they have done that already. The CHAIRMAN : I mean in view of the suggestion thrown out by Sir Joseph Ward, and they should consider it very carefully, and it might be put on the paper for the next meeting. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I should like to say I disagree absolutely with the remarks made by Sir Joseph Ward. So far as I am concerned, I do not agree to the principle that we cannot bring in retrospective legislation, so far as this particular matter is concerned, if the principle is bad. If we have been doing wrong in the past where human life is concerned, and human health is concerned, we have no right to allow that to continue regardless of any such principle as the monetary

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