49

A.—sa

KKI'OKT OF I'IiOCEEDINCS OF THE CONFEKENCE.

Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I should just like to read our recommendation. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : That was four years. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Evidence was given on the subject, and Section 9 of our report says : "Of the " shipping masters of the different States who gave " evidence before us only one had issued any certificates " under the section. He had, in the course of 27 years, "issued about half a dozen. Of the others" —(that is the other shipping masters) —"some had neither heard of "nor received anv application for them. They had " never consideied that the section necessitated, or " provided for, such certificates. Evidence was also given "that anybody could be engaged as an A.B. who had an "A.B.'s discharge, and that this discharge must be given "to persons who had absolutely none of the qualifi- " cations of a seaman. Cases were cited where a man " had, on the completion of his first voyage of less than "six months, received such discharge. It was freely "stated that a very large number of those signing on as "A.B.'s were men who were not entitled to be so " rated." Mr. BELCHER : This is the point I want to understand in connection with the matter. There is a vast deal of difference between a certificate and a discharge. If a man is qualified to be an able seaman, and he goes to an official and says. "Give me a certificate to the effect "that I am an able seaman; there are my papers to " prove that I am an able seaman," and he has issued to him a certificate, it stands, I take it, in exactly the same illation to the man as the certificate of an officer does, and it will obviate the necessity of that man at any time producing the discharge which he gets from a ship to prove that he- is an able seaman. I can sec the distinction that Mr. Hughes is driving at. And what I do know in connection with this matter is this —that me-n have gene- on board a ship for the matter of a few days or a few weeks, and when they have left that ship they have been given an able seaman's discharge without having gone through the probationary periods which the law lays down, and when once a man gets that discharge into his possession no one can question his rating as able seaman unless he is put through some examination by someone who is qualified to test his capabilities. The CHAIRMAN : I see your point. Captain CHALMERS : Under the present conditions, under Section 68, no seaman who fails to give the proof required by Section 126 of the principal Act will be allowed to sign on. Mr. BELCHER : What I want to find out is this. Is any attempt made when a man goes to sign on any ship— i« there any attempt made by the superintendent or the shipmaster, to ascertain from that man whether he is an able seaman or not, notwithstanding the fact that he produces a discharge? For instance, I am a landsman ; I meet a seaman, and I get from him a discharge purporting to show that I am an able seaman. I perse, nate that man and go to the shipping office and present that discharge. Is there any attempt made to examine me w ith the view of ascertaining that I am really what I represent myself to be? Tin: CHAIRMAN : I understand under the old Act that might have happened, but under the new Act, which comes into force in June, that will be impossible. Mir. BELCHED : By what means? Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON: A man will have to prove his three years' service by his book. That is what we intended when we passed this Act last year. Mr. BELCHER : I understand, then, that there has been a departure from the old system, and that an entirely new one is to be adopted. The CHAIRMAN : That is so. Mr. BELCHER : In that case may I ask whether, where a man has satisfied the superintendent that he holds sufficient discharges to qualify him for the position of able seaman, he is then granted this certificate, which is different from his discharge? Captain CHALMERS : Only if he applies for it. Mn. BELCHER.: It is not given to him automaticallv

B—A. SA.

Captain CHALMERS : No. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : It appears to me that it would be very much more satisfactory if, under this section, it was possible for the seaman to get a certificate as Mr. Belcher has stated. He would have to prove first of all that he was entitled to get it, but once he got it he would not have to keep on showing his discharges, because discharges, alter all, are onlj Mn. BELCHED : A record of a term of service. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : They are a record of chaiacter, and a man's competency might be entirely independent of that. He could prove that he was entitled to be rated as A.B. by production of this parchment certificate, and I think it would be a good thing that these certificates should be issued. You see this contemplates his making a statement, because it says —"And if any seaman, for the "purpose of obtaining a rating as A.8., makes any false "statement or false representation"—that is, supposing he has lost his discharges, or a man says to him, " I lave " you been four years at sea ?" and he says, " Yes, I have." Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : He must prove it. Captain CHALMERS : Our present system is a continuous system of discharge, in book form. We consider that more useful than a certificate, for this reason, that, under the continuous system we can test his identity, because it contains a record of his height, description, of hair, eyes, and complexion, marks on his body, and so on. With a certificate alone a man can come up and say : " I have lost my continuous certificate of discharge, but "here is my certificate as A.B."—and how are you to detect impersonation? He says his name is John Jones, and "John Jones" appears on the certificate. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : And it would be a bad thing to have the two, for this reason. A man might present himself with a certificate; he gets an engagement on that, and then his continuous discharge-book he could hand over to somebody else, and it would be easy to have the two used in that way. All we ask for here is that the superintendent will satisfy himself that the man can prove that he has been three years at sea. He must do that at the time he signs on. That is what we are aiming at in this section. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : In those Colonies where the continuous discharge system is not in force, and where consequently it would be a very desirable thing to have something in place of it—namely, a certificate—would your Board of Trade accept our certificate ? Captain CHALMERS: Certainly, if you word your certificate so as to enable you to detect personation, and put on the certificate the man's name, and make him sign it, and give a description of his height, complexion, and so on. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Is not that a measure of great detail ? Captain CHALMERS : We do not find it so. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: But you cannot put that sort of thing into an Act of Parliament. Captain CHALMERS : That would be a measure of regulation. The CHAIRMAN : " That no seaman should be per- " mitted to engage as A.B. on board anv British ship " who cannot show that he is justly entitled to that "rating, and that the period of service qualification "should be three years." I venture to add that to your resolution, Sir William. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : That is in conformity with what was proposed. The CHAIRMAN : Yes. Sir WILLIAM LYNE ; In our proposed Act we have this provision : " Any superintendent or other " person before whom a seaman is engaged shall refuse "to enter a seaman as A.B. in the agreement with the "crew unless the seaman gives to him satisfactory proof "of his title to be so rated." The CHAIRMAN : We have those words in our Act. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Then with regard to the discharge, we propose that " No person shall give a discharge to a seaman as fireman or greaser unless the