A.—sa

48

HEPOHT OK I'HOCEEDINGS OF TH3 CONFEHBNCE.

Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : That was in the old Act, and should have been put in force in 1882 ; but one of the Presidents of the Board of Trade got round the matter somehow or another by putting in the letters " N.P." (not proven) after A.1?.; and the Act has remained a dead letter. The CHAIRMAN : But this is a modification of that Act. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : But the old Act was quite clear; the old Act said that no seaman was to be entitled to be rated as an able seaman unless he had done four years' service. I always contended that no person should be engaged as an A.B. unless he could prove that service. Then one of the Presidents of the Board of Trade, to oblige the shipowners, adopted the principle of putting " N.P." opposite the name of a man who could not show that service; and that made the Act a dead letter. Mil. HISLOP : In what respect ! Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : That it was never carried out. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: We took sojue evidence on this. The section in the Merchant Shipping Act is well known. The CHAIRMAN : This is the new Act ! Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What section? The CHAIRMAN : Subsection (2) of Section OS. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : " Any superintendent or other "officer before whom a seaman is engaged shall refuse to "enter the- seaman as A.B. on the agreement with the "crew unless the seaman gives such satisfactory proof as " is required by section 126 of the principal Act of his ■title to be so rated; and if any seaman, for the purpose "of obtaining a rating as A.8., makes any false statement "or false representation, he shall be liable on summary "conviction in respect of e-ach offence to a fine not "exceeding £5." That does ne>t apply to persons with the discharge of A.8., and this will not prevent a man who has a discharge as an A.B. from being shipped as an A.B. We understand this point very thoroughly, and everybody is aware, I presume, that any man can be shipped as an A.B. who possesses a discharge as an A.B. : and any man can get a discharge as an A.B. to whom the master of the ship chooses to give such a discharge. Anybody can get a discharge as an A.B. who has been, say, a month at sea ; there is nothing to stop him, nothing in the world. The section in the Merchant Shipping Act was put there to prevent anybody getting shipped as an A.B. who had not been four years at sea; but from the day this was enacted until now, I ask, if there is any gentleman here who has had charge of the issue of the certificates under that section, how many certificates hehas known to have been issued in Great Britain during the whole period that that section has been current? I will tell him that in the whole time of over 20 years in Australia only two certificates were ever issued under that section—one to a man now in Parliament, and one by another person who, I think, is happily dead. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : We have had six in England. Captain CHALMERS : No certificate is issued. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : How many certificate* have ever been issued? If you will turn up the principal Act. you will see that a man is entitled to the rating of A.8., and neither the Board of Trade nor any other person is competent to prevent him being rated ; and no man ean get a discharge as an A.B. unless the master chooses to give him that discharge. The man must be given the rating of A.B. if he has been four years at sea as an able seaman. Captain CHALMERS : Rating does not take place until the man has been actually entered upon the Articles. then the superintendent says, " Produce your certificates "of discharge"—he produces them; and, if he does that he is put on the Articles. That is the rating; there is no certificate. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : Under the Old Act there was a provision that a certificate should be issued, but there were only about six such certificates issued in the United Kingdom.

Captain CHALMERS : Because thev were not applied for. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON: Because the seamen were not aware at the time that they could have such certificates. We had evidence of that before the Mercantile Marine Committee. That is the point Mr. Hughes is dealing with. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : It says here—(this is Section 138 of the Merchant Shipping Act, 1894) —"A seaman " shall not be entitled to the rating of A.8., that is to "say, of an able-bodied seaman, unless he has served at "sea for four years before 'I' l ' mast, but the employment "of fishermen in decked fishing vessels registered under "the first part of this Act shall only count as sea service "up to the period of three years of that employment; "and the rating of A.li. shall only be granted after at " least one year's sea service in a trading vessel, in addi- " tion to three or more years' sea service on board of " decked fishing vessels so registered. 'The service may "be proved by certificates of discharge, by s certificate "of service from the Registrar-General of Shipping and "Seamen (granted by the Registrar on payment of a fee "not exceeding sixpence), specifying in each case whether " the service was rendered in whole or in part in steam"ship or in sailing ship, or by other satisfactory proof And, therefore, it is not necessary at all that he should have a certificate of discharge. That is only one of the ways of proving. It is not necessary to have a certificate of service. He may get it in three ways, according to the section. In Australia, so far as I know, no one at present has ever been rated as A.8., as provided by that section, or the one which we have re-enacted in the terms of that section, and what we want to see is that no person shall be engaged or perrnitted to act as A.B. on any ship unless he has been, say, four years at sea. 'The CHAIRMAN: We have altered it now to three years. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I am not going to quarrel about three years. 'Tin: CHAIRMAN: We have reduced the four years to three years in the new Act. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I know you have, but at the same time, is it clearly understood that that means that no man can ship on board a ship as an A.B. unless he has been three years at sea ? Captain CHALMERS : Yes. Sub-section (2) provides for that. Mu. COX : Sub-section (2) of Section 58 of the Act of 1906 says:—"Any superintendent or other officer "before whom a seaman is e-ngaged shall refuse to enter " the seaman as A.B. on the agreement with the crew " unless the seaman gives such satisfactory proof as is " required by Section 126 of the principal Act of his title " to be so rated." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What does the principal Act say? "A seaman shall not be entitled to the rating of "A.8.," and so on. Now before the ship can go to sea the men have to be rated. Very well. Therefore, the ships cannot go to sea—you may ship as many men as you like, but they must be rated. Therefore, Section 126 just as effectually prevented sending men to sea unless i hey have been four years to sea, as the new section does. Mr. COX : The superintendent must satisfy himself now : in the old Act it was the captain who had to satisfy himself. The CHAIRMAN : Anyhow, we are quite satisfied that we can comply with the terms of that resolution which Sir William Lyne put down — that no seaman should be permitted to engage as A.B. on board any British ship who cannot show that he is justly entitled under the old rating. I mean we can accept that. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : It is enacted in Britain, and it is proposed in the Report of the Royal Commission of Australia. The CHAIRMAN : We should like to add, for the sake of uniformity, that the service qualification should be three years, as we have reduced ours from four to three. Sir _ WILLIAM LYNE: I do not think there is any objection to that. We also propose three in our new Act.