A.—sa

62

KKI'OIIT OF I'HOCKKDINGS OF THE CONFLUENCE.

Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Of course we have. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: It is no good burdening this Conference with anything of that kind. Mu. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Is there any of these classes which you have put in your resolution in which tin- Colonial law, in your opinion, will be applicable outside territorial waters? Hon, W. M. HUGHES : I do certainly think that, so far as our own coastal ships are concerned, if a vessel were to sail from Sydney to Fiji or Singapore, registered at Sydney or Melbourne, and we found she had broken on.- law whilst outside our territorial waters, we should certainly consider she: had broken a Commonwealth law. Of course, the law is only enforceable within the jurisdiction. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: I <1.. not see myself that we really can go past our own registered ships, or any ship doing coastal trade. Rut if it trades with Grant Britain when it leaves our shores, I cannot see that our ire going to have effect in England. Unless you specify certain places, I cannot see that we can make it apply all over the- world; I do not think that is practicable. And we should have it, to my mind, inside, as far as we can, our territorial waters between New Zealand and Australia, and what may be termed are ferritin ial waters, and that is a question that wants, perhaps, considering a little, license there has been the que raised as to whether we have power. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I should like- information on the point. If we define what coastal trade is, I proposeto leave out "or between the Commonwealth, New " Zealand, and the islands of the Pacific " from the next resolution. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: What does our Act say? It says, " whose first port of clearance is within the Commonwealth." That is clear. I am not epiite sure whether under the second part of our Constitution the ('■institution does give us power to legislate on the trade and commerce with other countries J and Section 98 goes cm to say, "that the power of Parliament to make " laws extends to navigation and shipping." If that is legal, we have the power. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: 1 should like to say this, if il comes to a question of our powers, that I was not talking of that at all. Mu. LLEWELLYN SMITH: That is a thing we should have, to argue as lawyers. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : We decided to try and avoid all that. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: That is right enough, but the- President has said that ill so far as the Merchant Shipping Act is concerned, what we propose is not repugnant to the Statute. I want to say in my opinion we have plenary power in respect of making laws with regard 1 i navigation and shipping subject only to our Constitution Act and Hie King's assent, and that the sections of the Merchant Shipping Act do not apply to us at all. Mb. COX : I cannot agree to that, but I do not want to raise a controversy. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: I say 735 and 736 do not apply to us. .Mr. COX : Why not? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Because- tin- Merchant Shipping Act is an 1894 Act. The Imperial Statute constituting us as a Commonwealth was the- 1899 Act. Mu. CON : Where does it repeal IL in. W. M. HUGHES: It is repealed by implication. It cannot be conceived that the Imperial Parliament permitted thai subsection to be put in, the giving us power over navigation and commerce there. —We have power there to make laws Mi:. CON : I do not think with regard to the territory of Australia, Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I am not going to argue about the matter, but I am not going to allow any observations 1.. be made with which by being silent one might be held to

that, under our Constitution, we have not complete powers we arc not at all subject to Sections 735 and 73(1 of the Merchant Shipping Act; I take it we are outside sections. \ln. CON : I deprecate raising these questions, but Mr. Hughes says he is not going to allow this and that, ami 1 must enter my caveat too. I enter my gcnci.il caveat now, and I am not going to say anything more. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Neither of us being Judges of the Court of Appeal, we cannot make the law. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: Now this has been said, I do not think the Imperial Ait contains anything that gi\.s us powers under this Constitution, or the covering Act. without an amendment of our Constitution. Sm JOSEPH WARD: I think Mr. Bertram Cos is epiite right, and I would like to say the same thing. Whatever I think to be right, and give my concurrence .to. whether by speaking or not, I accept the full responsibility for. The legal aspect of what we are doing still requires to he settled by our Governments. I think Mr. Hughes is quite right from his point of view. Mn. PEMBROKE: lias Mr. Hughes put his amendment ? Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We have not yel I to the point of taking the resolution and the amendment. I ,:m trying to get now a substantial agreement as to what we want, and then I want to see if we cannot make a resolution that will embody the whole thing. This was a little interlude on the legal point. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I submit there is no alternative but to put that in triplicate. You must divide it into classes. I am perfectly willing to say: "That "the law of any British possession operates in respect ".-I all vessels that carry cargo or passengers from one "port to another of that possession whilst within terri " toi ial waters." Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : But Sir Joseph Ward said he wanted to strike out the last line of his resolution. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : I want to sav that at present the law in Victoria is made applicable to" all Rritish ships being at any place without any consideration. 'Thai is whal I am asking for, that it should apply to all ships coming on to the coast of Austialia. It is the law of Victoria to-day. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : It is the law of Western Australia also. Mu. KEITH : It is not quite so wide in New South Wales. Sn: WILLIAM LYNE: Bui I should certainly deprecate on behalf ~f th,- Commonwealth reducing flic power We have at the present time. Mil. KEITH : You have not, perhaps, the power in Victoria ? Sm WILLIAM LYNE: It has been in force for a long time, and it has been put into force a good many times. Mn. KEITH : So long as the question of its validity is not raised. -Sir WILLIAM LYNE: We an- taking the commonsense m.w and the layman's point of view. That is the practice to-day ass.-nted to by the Imperial Government in \ id..ria, and that is what I am proposing in this resolution, and I do not feel at all disposed .©withdraw the resolution or to go back from I In- petition that is held at the present time. If we did. 1 think we from Australia would be very much blamed for givine: un si mething we have already. Mn. NORMAN HILL: Would not Sir William Lyne heJp US if he would lake- Mr. Hughes's wording and say where he thmks ,t defective; so (hat, if necessary, we could add a paragraph. I understand (haf if Sir William Lyne gets all he wants, he does not mind i( being divided into se\. ial heads. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I would like to submit my resolution, which was drawn up after due consideration,