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REPORT OF FROCEEDINOS OF TIIE CONFERENCE

seamen may leave their ships in Australia. I understand that is a pioposal in the Bill. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : That is a proposal; it is not a law. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I say it is a proposal in the Bill that a seaman may leave his ship in Australia, and he cannot be arrested. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : You mean to say that he may give up his contract? Mb. HAVELOCK WILSON : Yes, and you would not send him to gaol. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Oh, no. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : Now then, there is a German ship —the smaller class of vessel that Mr. Hughes refers to —I know the class of vessel. She engages her crew in Hamburg for a three years' voyage. When they get out to Sydney, they trade directly to Ocean Island or other islands in the Pacific, picking up cargo and bringing it back to Sydney for the big boats. Now I take it that those German seamen, when they know they can leave their ships without being sent to gaol Hon. W. M. HUGHES: But they cannot leave without being sent to gaol. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : Wait till I have finished my story. I say the proposal Hon. W. M. HUGHES : But this is the law, and the proposal will not alter the law. Mb. HAVELOCK WILSON : Wait till I have finished. The natural thing for the Germans would be to leave their ship, because they say, " If we leave this "ship and engage on other vessels, we will get the Aus- " tralian rate of wages." Well, now, that German vessel has got to replace these men, and if the Australians limit the engagement to the men in Sydney and say, " If you engage crews in Sydney to go down to the " Fiji Islands, vou will have to pay the Australian rate " of wages." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : That is all very well in theory. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : But is not that how it would work out in practice? The CHAIRMAN : That is what I understand to be Sir William Lyne's proposal. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : The law is that directly these German seamen deserted and come on shore, Sir William Lyne, or whoever is in office, would have them arrested as prohibited immigrants. No doubt he would, because he is a man of that kind. The contract, they would be rejoiced to know, was absolutely void, but they themselves (and this would quench their joy a little) would be mulcted in a penalty of not exceeding £5 each. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : But may I point out to Mr. Hughes that they do not do that now. There are hundreds of men who desert from German ships in the Colonies. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : No, there are not. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I can assure Mr Hughes that I see many German ships arriving from Sydney and elsewhere with English crews on board, who have engaged on those German ships in the Colonies at the Australian rate of wages. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : May I say a word as to the danger of some of these proposals. It may be desirable, of course, from an Australian standpoint that we should impose the Australian late of wages on all •ships trading in the Pacific. First of all, of course, there is the question into which I will not enter, as to whether it is our legal right to do so, but apart from that altogether there are meat dangers that we will come to decisions that will be injurious to Australia in this conenction. These French vessels and German vessels are not merely trading in the Pacific and carrvmg British trade: they are in many cases trading in the Pacific and carrying the trade "of their own pendencies—the French from New Caledonia, Loyalty

Islands, and the New Hebrides, in which latter there is a joint Protectorate; the Germans from Samoa, the Solomon Islands, and German New Guinea. Well, that trade is going voluntarily to Sydney, and the goods either for sale there or for transhipment to other portions of the world. If we are to impose on these vessels the rate of pay equivalent to our own (I mean that of Australia), we would only force that business away from Australia, and the accompanying employment of labour which it gives would also be forced away from Australia, either to a concentrating centre in the Islands, whence it would go to Europe or we may direct it to Singapore, and it would pass the borders of Australia. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not agree at all. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I do, and to a certain extent that is being done now, and it will be done to a much larger extent if we try to get that power over those vessels. Then again, there is this —that the proposals of Sir Joseph Ward that the Fiji Government should enforce a law that the rate of payment of wages on vessels from Fiji to Australia should be the Australian rate, and that the same should be enforced from the other end to the Commonwealth would mean this possibly—that Fiji, a Crown Colony, would be avoided —that the trade, a lot of which is now concentrated at Fiji from the other Islands, would avoid Fiji, and go to another port outside altogether the jurisdiction of the British Government. It is not a question of the desirability of what you are proposing; it is a question of the possibility, and of the dangers that we may create in trying to avoid other dangers now existing. That is what I say. It is a very serious question, and it is a widely-stretching question. It knocks against international law ; it knocks against international comity ; and it may strike at, instead of benefiting, the interests of Australia. So that I think we ought to very seriously consider before we attempt to do what may only be a partial thing, and what will really have, I think, very little effect in benefiting anybody. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Do you not think that Australia would take care to do nothing to injure Australia? Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Well, the proposal is before us now, and we are asked to accept it. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : It does not say that we will do it, whether we accept it here or not. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : What is the use of our proposing to do here things that will not be carried out? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I disagree with your ideas absolutely. As Mr. Hughes says, supposing these foreign ships did go away, there would be no tears wept in Australia, because there are plenty of ships lying in the harbours there that would take the work up. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : But the work would betaken elsewhere ; it would not be done by those ships. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Colcnel Burns, during the time our Government was in—and since, I believe— has said clearly enough, that only by increased subsidies can he carry on at all. Now Sir William Lyne and Australia generally have gone for raising the tariff against the foreigrer. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Against the Islands, too. The CHAIRMAN: We ought to have before us some definite proposal, because I confess I am not quite clear even now as to the extent to which the proposal goes. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I will move that Australian conditions shall apply on those ships. The CHAIRMAN : Please write it down, because it is very important. This raises very important international questions. Sir JOSEPH WARD : My motion was :— "That the Conference recommends that the Australian and New Zealand Governments make provision that the crews shipped in the Commonwealth and New Zealand for Fiji and the Pacific Islands be paid at the current rate of the coastal wages of those countries."