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REIOUT OF PUOCEBDINQS OK THE CONFERENCE

Mr. NORMAN HILL: Might I put it to Sir Joseph —is it a question for the Conference to recommend . Is it not rather this : -" That the Conference recom- " mends in regard to seamen engaged or shipped in the ' Colonies that the Commonwealth shall make what regu- " lations it pleases." Sir JOSEPH WARD : You are quite right. The CHAIRMAN That is a very different proposal from Air. Hughes's. 1 thought that was Sir William Lyne's proposal. Sir WILLIAM LY'NE : My first suggestion was, and what I had in my mind was, that if we could possibly do it, we might lay down the line of demarcation whereby e:ur coastal trade conditions would take effect, and by doing that bring in an area which would cover those islands which we desired to see the trade carried to, so that they would be put on the same conditions as our own. That is really what was in my mind. Mr. Hughes here handed in a motion to the Chairman. Sir JOSEPH WARD : 1 will read my motion again : —■ " That the Conference recommends that the Australian and New Zealand Governments make provision that the crews shipped in the Commonwealth and New Zealand for Fiji and the Pacific Islands be paid at the current rate of the coastal wages of those countries." The CHAIRMAN : This is Mr. Hughes's motion :— " That Australian conditions should apply to all ships engaged in trading between any port of the Commonwealth and the Islands of the Pacific." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : That is the same thing. The CHAIRMAN : No, that really applies to the case I put, and as to which Mr. Hughes said that no sane person would possibly accept it. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : One moment, Mr. President. Where does it differ ? What is your objection ? The CHAIRMAN : There is this difference. I tried to point it out before, and Mr. Norman Hill has pointed it out. That applies to crews engaged in the Colonies on contracts actually entered into in your jurisdiction. This is a much wider thing. This applies to the whole trade. Wherever a labour contract is entered into, it will have to be covered by Australian conditions. That is much more sweeping, and besides, it is impossible to enforce it owing to international law. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : With all deference, Mr. President, I want to point out to you that under the Statute Law of Australia, which you cannot overlook — which is assented to, and which is now the law—the only question that can arise is whether they can be said to perform any work in Australia at all. But if they can be (and I think they can myself), then I say they come within the scope of the Contract Immigrants' Act, No. 19, of 1905. The only persons exempted are the persons engaged at rates not less than those obtaining in the Commonwealth in the coasting trade of Australia. These men do not receive such rates; therefore the section applies. Or if they are not engaged in the coastal trade within the meaning of the Act, then the section applies. The CHAIRMAN : Which section is that? Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Section 8. The CHAIRMAN : "The two last preceding sections "do not apply to an immigrant under a contract or "agreement to serve as part of the crew of a vessel "engaged in the coasting trade in Australian waters." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Therefore it does apply to persons engaged in other than that. The "two last "preceding sections" are merely the penal sections. Sib JOSEPH WARD : While that is being looked up, I will read this :— "That this Conference recommends that the Australian and New Zealand Governments have the right to make provision that the crews shipped in the Commonwealth and New Zealand for Fiji and the Pacific Islands be paid at such rates of wages as those Governments decide."

The CHAIRMAN : The crews shipped within your jurisdiction? Sir JOSEPH WARD : Yes. Mr. BELCHER: This does not go far enough. Let us look at the thing from the New Zealand point of view for a moment. New Zealand has got very large interests in the Pacific, and they are affected in exactly the same way as the Australian interests that are running to the Pacific. Now what I want to point out to the Conference is this : that there is no very great violation of principle in doing what Mr. Hughes and Sir \\ illiam Lyne are asking for. For this reason— when a ship comes from Great Britain or any other part of the world and engages in the coastwise trade of New Zealand, it does not matter where her contracts are made, or where they arc, that vessel has got to conform to New Zealand law. There is the principle right away established that they cannot interfere with the coasting trade. Well, now, the coasting trade is no more purely the New Zealanders' or the Australians' than any Other trade is, but we think it highly necessary that that trade should be protected, and incidentally we want to protect the other ramifications of the trade, which extend farther than the coast. The CHAIRMAN: But surely you cannot possibly suggest that the trade between New Zealand and Australia and the Pacific is coasting trade. That is a very considerable extension of the principle. Mr. BELCHER : The Chief Justice of New Zealand has ruled this in a case brought before him recently of a dispute respecting the wages —as to whether coastal rates were payable outside the territorial waters. What Sir Robert Stout has held is this—that wherever that shipping was, the coasting rates of wages had to be paid. The CHAIRMAN : For a ship registered in the Colony ? Mr. BELCHER :. Quite so. The CHAIRMAN : Of course, she would be amenable to the jurisdiction of the Colony, but this would be applicable to British ships registered here, and foreign ships as well, which are not so amenable. Mb. BELCHER : The rate has to be paid on the coast. Y'ou are interfering with other people in other contracts, are you not ? Mr. COX : Nobody disputes that. Mr. BELCHER : Let us look at it from this point of view, then. New Zealand interests have established trades, and they have built up at a great deal of expense these trades with the Islands of the Pacific. Is is right and proper that the people who do not conform to the conditions of New Zealand and Australia should be allowed to come in and take that trade away ? Mr. COX : May I speak from the point of view of the British shipowner and the British taxpayer. The whole of the expense of these Islands in the Pacific is borne by the British taxpayer. In the New Hebrides we shall have something like an initial outlay of £50,000, and £10,000 a year; and it is the same with Fiji, the same with the Solomon Islands, and the same with others. They are all paid by the British taxpayer, and when it is put as if it were entirely a question of Australian and New Zealand interests, then I say the British taxpayer is also concerned. He has been paying for all these years, and do let us consider him a little. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : Surely you would not say that these British ships have the right to come down and injure our trade simply because the British taxpayer has been paying this money for these periods? Mb. COX : As I said a little while ago, ships registered in Australia, and ships whose first port of destination is in the Commonwealth, come under Australian conditions. There is no dispute about that. But what I do think is hard is, that a British shipowner who comes from oversea, and then coasts in Australia, and then goes on to Fiji, has got to observe Australian conditions then. That is the only thing I object to. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : You will see it says there, " to and from."

Colony ?