A.—sa

76

REPORT OK PHOCEKDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Mr. COX : Y'our law covers it as it is in Australia. The CHAIRMAN: It says, "all ships engaged in " trading between any port of the Commonwealth and " the Islands of the Pacific." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : "To and from." The CHAIRMAN : Where does that come in? Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not know where it does come in, I am sure ; I cannot see it from here. The CHAIRMAN : This is Sir Joseph Ward's resolution : " That this Conference recognises that the Aus- " tralian and New Zealand Governments have the right "to make provision that the crews shipped in the Com- " monwealth and New Zealand for Fiji and the Pacific " Islands be paid at such rate of wages as the respective "Governments elect to fix." Hon. W. M. HUGHES: It dees not say "crews en"gaged in Australia or New Zealand"? The CHAIRMAN : "Shipped in the Commonwealth." Hon. W. M. HUGHES : " Shipped.-" Well, all I have to say is this, that that resolution is not wanted at all. We already have that right. It has been conceded to us already, and we do not want any further recognition of that right. We have the right to ship men under what conditions we like in the Commonwealth. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : But at the Commonwealth rate of wages. You do not say that up to now. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : But you are not going to say what rate of wages we shall pay. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I understand that resolution to say that a man engaged in the Colonies will be shipped at the Commonwealth and New Zealand rate of wages. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: We can do that without asking anybody else's permission. The CHAIRMAN : It comes back to what you suggested originally —that you wanted to extend it to where contracts were entered into outside—in Bremen, London, or Liverpool. You want to impose Australian rate of wages the moment they touch the Fiji trade. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : The moment the vessel touches the Commonwealth, we want to have a voice as to the conditions to be enforced. We have passed three Acts already dealing with the matter. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I should like to tell the Conference of a case that has occurred in actual practice in New Zealand. It has been conveyed to me by my friend Mr. Mills. It was a vessel called the " Auchen " Blae." "This vessel was chartered by my Company " from May, 1904, to January, 1905. On her arrival " in Auckland in August, 1904, the master was informed "by the Collector of Customs that he would have to "comply with the Shipping and Seamen's Act, 1903, "in respect to manning, adjustment of compasses, and "surveying; the two latter were waived by the Marine Department as the vessel had been recently docked "at Sydney, and she was allowed to proceed to sea" (she went to Fiji, as a matter of fact) "on the understanding that a licensed adjuster gave a certificate " to the effect that her compasses were in good order, " &c. 'This was done, but the master was compelled "to increase his crew by three deck and three engine- " room hands." Now there is a case where our law stepped in for a vessel going across the ocean to Fiji, and compelled her to increase her crew by six hands. Mr. DUNLOP : That is one of the cases which I referred to which we object to. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I am alluding to that case in order to show and to affirm the right I expressed in that resolution. The CHAIRMAN : That is an interference on the ground of unseaworthiness. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Might I ask Mr. Hughes whether he would assent to foreign Powers exercising the same rights in the German Dependencies or the French Possessions in the Pacific—whether he would be willing to allow them to rescind a contract

made with a British seaman, and to allow the lower rate of wages to be substituted ! Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I should be willing to let them do whatever they can do. Whatever they can do, let them do. I think that is a perfectly logical position to take up. Of course. I have no eh übt it may seem extremely absurd to those who think differently. The position taken up by the British delegates appears to be this—that anything we do to safeguard our trade, if it comes at all into collision with other Powers, is either absurd or impossible. Now we are proposing (I do not believe in it myself, but I am supporting a Government that does, and, of course, that accounts for a good many things) to raise a tariff in favour of Great Britain and against the foreigner. Well, they are perfectly at liberty to exclude Australian products, say, from Germany, and no doubt they will try to do so. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : And you put on a tariff to exclude the Pacific Islands' products. The CHAIRMAN : This is really a wider thing than that, Mr. Hughes. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I shall be glad if you will show me how ? The CHAIRMAN : If you wanted to lay down a principle that anyone trading between Australia ami any other port in any other part of the world Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I do not say so. The CHAIRMAN : But that would be a principle. Supposing you said that anyone trading between Austialia and any other part of the world must pay Australian wages, that is one proposition; but to confine that to the Islands of the Pacific is really in substance an attempt to impose Australian and New Zealand coasting conditions upon the Pacific Islands. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Y.-s. The CHAIRMAN : That is raising a very big issue. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: The position has arisen owing to the fact that we have not exercised a suzerainty over the- Pacific: It is rather late in the day, I know, to think of doing so now. The CHAIRMAN : That is really what is being raised now. Well, that is a question which I am afraid c:.n hardly be discussed here. It is a question that ought to be raised at the Imperial Conference. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: That is very likely where it will be raised. The CHAIRMAN : We can hardly discuss here a proposition so very far-reaching. This is not really labour; you are raising a much bigger issue, which I do not feel it would be quite in order for us to discuss here. It may be quite in order to raise it at the Imperial Conference, but as to that I do not, of course, express any opinion. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : Our present system in Australia, regarding our customs, and the trailing of the vessels along our coasts, which hive been referred to very often, is that we seal up a certain portion of their goods whilst in our waters. They have protested that they go outside the limits of our control, and that we should not prevent them from breaking our seal before they get to the next port. 'That may be the legal position, but the position that we have takes! up, which is legal, I am eiuite certain—at least, I think so, because we are doing it every day—is, that if they do that, and go into another port, we will deal with them when they are in our ports. MR- COX : It is legal for this reason, they are not punishing them for something they do outside your jurisdiction, but you are making it an offence for them to enter your territorial waters under certain circumstances. Sib WILLIAM LYNE : Supposing a vessel traJes from Melbourne or Sydney to Fiji; when she leaves our port she is subject to our laws; she is a coastal trader, we will say, under our definition. She goes away, and she ignores what she has been doing whilst she has been under our control. When she comes back again, in the same way as when a ship comes back with the seal on her hatch, or whatever it is, would