A.—sa

86

REPORT OF IROCEEDINGS OF THK CONFERENCE.

lution that was passed when I was absent, and I asked if it was to terminate there, and you said, No—that that would be subject to any decision as to what coastal trade was. Then, in Resolution 9 (which is an amendment to a resolution I gave notice of) these words are used, which interpret what coasting trade is :-* " That the vessels to which the conditions imposed by "the law of Australia or New Zealand are applicable "should be («) vessels registered in the Colony while "trading therein, and (6) vessels wherever registered " while trading on the coast of the Colony." That is, if any British vessel is trading on the coast of the Colony under these conditions which are referred to, immediately the manning scale deals with that vessel. Now, this is the provision that is made: —"That for "the purpose of this resolution a vessel shall be deemed "to trade if she takes em board cargo or passengers " in the Colony, carried to and landed or delivered at "any other port in the Colony." Therefore the manning scale Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : Not the manning scale— the manning. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I beg vour pardon —the manning. 'That was my object in asking that question on No. 5, to see that this question came.in afterwards, which could he road in conjunction with No. 5. It seems to me that that deals with this question (except in one particular) which Mr. Hughes has given notice of. His resolution is: "That this ('onfere-nce approves of "the principle of a manning scale applicable to all " British, Australian, and Netf Zealand ships." Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : That is not the one which is being discussed. The CHAIRMAN : Mr. Hughes has been arguing both. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Yes, but it is with a differ-em-e. 1 think, as far as I can judge, we are practically in a position, under the two resolutions that I have referred to, to be able to deal with every ship that trades along our'coast. That is my impression; I may be wrong, but I think so. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : On tin- coast, yes. Sie WILLIAM LYNE: A British vessel trading on the coast. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Yes. Mr. COX : I really do not know that it is while she is on the coast--while she is engaged in the coasting trade, I suppose you mean? Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I am speaking of the coasting trade. If she is on the coast, and does not do our trade at all, I do not think anyone is asking that we should have power to deal with her then. Mr. MILLS : That does not applv to vessels proceeding from Sydney to the Islands. That is not coasting trade. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: While she is within territorial waters. The CHAIRMAN : I think this point of order has been very adequately discussed. Mr. Hughes has very fully put his views forward. But let me say at once that there is no attempt to rule out anything which it is important should be discussed between Australia, New Zealand, and ourselves, in so far as shipping legislation is concerned. The resolutions we have already carried show that we have dealt very exhaustively with many of these subjects. Here is "survey," "scale of provisions," "inspection of provisions," "accommodation "of crew," "manning," "accommodation conditions "and existing ships," "rating," "officers"; resolutions with regard to the coasting trade; resolutions with regard to through tickets. And we are going on to discuss questions about articles of agreement, about lascars, and about British sailors. Well, now, surely, I -do not think Australia would complain that we have ruled out anything that ought to be discussed. Sie WILLIAM LYNE : It is only that I do not desire that you should put yourself in the position that they would blame us through you. That is what I do not want.

The CHAIRMAN : I do not think they will. I observe from a telegram in the "Times" to-day that they are very satisfied, so far, with the resolutions adopted. That is a telegram which comes from Sydney. I do not think Australia is likely to complain at all about the topics we have discussed, or the conclusions we have come to. Let me say another thing before we come to the point of order. I think it is necessary, as ii will appear on the notes. Mr. Hughes has taken rather an unfair advantage of an observation I made, I think, with reference to the manning resolution. I pointed out the great difficulty of carrying through Parliament an Imperial Bill. Our difficulties are much greater than yours. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: There are more of them; they are not greater. The CHAIRMAN: After all, we are looking after some hundreds of millions of people in the Imperial Parliament. 'The responsibility is upon the shoulders of the Imperial Parliament, while, on the other hand, .you have, I think, about five millions. I have not the exact details of the population before me. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: But we have not such a majority as yours. The CHAIRMAN : Not only that, but you have got four or live legislatures apart from the Commonwealth Legislature. Unfortunately, owing to our arrangements, we have nothing corresponding to that, and the whole work is cast entirely upon the Imperial Parliament here. We have to look after all things, great and small, and it is exceedingly difficult to get a Bill on any subject through the Imperial Parliament. If Mr, Hughes had had the experience of Imperial Parliament which I have had, 1 think he would realise that there was a good deal of justice in the observations which I made. But I never said that nothing could be done for 12 or 20 years. On the contrary, since Mr. Hughes made that observation, I have been going through these resolutions; they are very farreaching, some of them, and they involve something to be done by us, and we can do it in a great many cases without legislation. The survey, for instance, can be done without legislation; that is a matter of enormous importance, and it can be done by adminisII at ion and by rules. We have great power of making rules. It is one of the expedients which we have to resort to owing to the great congestion of business in the Imperial Parliament.—we have conferred great powers upon the different Departments, all making rules subject, of course, to the right of Parliament to challenge them. Therefore, it is not correct to say that I said nothing could be done for 12 or 20 years. We are prepared to meet you, and we are going to accept these resolutions in good faith, and in so far as we can, we are going bo carry them through, and I do not think we shall give any legitimate cause for complaint, either to the Commonwealth or to New Zealand, in that respect. I am bound to say that, because I want to put it on the notes, having regard to what Mr. Hughes has said. We mean to carry out all the pledges we have given to this Conference. Now let tne say this with regard to the point of order. All I say with regard to that is, that this is not a Conference at which you can discuss a question of jurisdiction. As Sir William Lyne has so very well pointed out, in so far as merchant shipping legislation is concerned, it is covered already by the two resolutions which he has quoted. If there is any point which Mr. Hughes wishes to raise outside those two resolutions, then we ciime to the very great question of jurisdiction, and it raises constitutional issues which will involve the Colonial Office, and which will involve Foreign Powers, and which ought to be discussed at the great Imperial Conference which will meet, I think, next week. Now, so far have the Australian representatives realised that, that I think a notice has already been placed upon the papers to discuss it at the Imperial Conference. Now I do not mean to say that it will be impertinent for us to anticipate that Conference, but I do not think it will be expedient that we should do so. I will put it on that ground— on the ground that I think it is outside the purview of this Conference to discuss a large question of that kind. because it is really a question of the right of the Australian Commonwealth to treat Fiji and the Pacific Islands as home trade —that is, if anything more is intended by Mr. Hughes than is already covered by