A.—sa

87

REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS OF THS CONFERENCE.

the resolutions urged by Sir William Lyne. My own opinion is, that they amply cover the whole ground, but if Mr. Hughes intends anything more, I am certain it is a great Imperial question that must be discussed elsewhere. That is my view as to the point of order. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I am quite satisfied if you put it on the ground of expediency. Me. HAVELOCK WILSON : I would like to assure Mr. Hughes on this point with regard to the observation which you made, sir, about there being no legislation for some ye.ns to come. I feel sure you die! not intend to say that legislation was going to be shut out, because we shall take good care that, as far as we are concerned as representing the seamen, there will be no rest until we get a manning scale. I am certain the President will agree with me on that point. The CHAIRMAN : No one knows better than Mr. Havelock Wilson that it is the case that in the Imperial Parliament the re is very great difficulty in getting any considerable measure through. Mb. HAVELOCK WILSON : I know how difficult it is to get a Rill tlnough, but that would not stop us from fighting and agitating until we got ft through. Mr. Hughes may rest quite assured as to that. The CHAIRMAN : There have been at least 50 Bills within the last few years carried by huge majorities up to the Second Reading, which could not go any further because there was not any time. For instance, the Light Dues Rill is a case in point. A Bill has been carried through Imperial Parliament up to Second Reading dealing with the Light Dues, and it could not be carried any fuither f'ir want of time. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What you have just said does not apply to No. 2. The CHAIRMAN : It applies to No. 2 on the ground which was pointed out by Sir William Lyne, that that is really covered by resolutions 5 and 9. That is not the sole ground. In addition to that, we could not consider here the question of manning for British ships—because that includes manning. Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : Substitute "English." The CHAIRMAN : We could not recommend for Canada and Natal when they are not presentV—in fact, it would create very great unpleasantness. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I must be allowed to say on that head — and I will say no more — that I do claim the same right here, to make a recommendation as to what is, in our opinion, fit and proper to be observed in the British mercantile marine, as the British delegates have to make a recommendation in respect to the Commonwealth mercantile marine. I am not speaking of Canada and Natal—l am speaking of the British mercantile- marine belonging to (Heat Britain and registered in Great Britain. I say there are thousands of Australians millions —that never come near Great Britain, and wc claim the right of making The CHAIRMAN : I thought I had made it clear that if you confined it to the United Kingdom I could not rule it out. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I beg your pardon. The CHAIRMAN : I could not rule you out in that case. The resolution in the present form—No. 2—l could not rule out if you confined it to the United Kingdom, lint you cannot have a recommendation for the whole Empire, and that is the form in which you have placed it upon the paper. Hon W. M. HUGHES : To what part of it do you say I can address myself? The CHAIRMAN: If you confine it to the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand, I cannot rule you out there. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I beg your pardon; I did not understand that. Then I will be very brief. What I wish to say is this. I will make that alteration. It will read then—" Applicable to all vessels " Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : " All vessels registered "in the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zea- " land."

Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Yes, those words will suit me very well. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : In regard to that resolution, may I point out that the Chairman of the Aus tralian Royal Commission is exceeding now the recommendation of the Commission. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Oh, no doubt that is right enough. I am here now representing the people of Austialia in my own way. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : It was decided by that Commission —and the Chairman of the Commission was a party to that decision —that the manning scale should only apply to ships registered in Australia, ships licensed to trade on the coast and ships continually trading. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Of course, hut that is Ausbralian legislation. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : That is the recommendation, and as Mr. Hughes has said, it is the recommendation of that Commission which forms at any rate one great reason for this Conference. I am prepared to hold by the recommendation of the Commission in that respect, but a manning scale fixed by some formula has not yet been shown to yield equitable results —to my satisfaction, at any rate. So far as our evidence went at any rate, no manning scale has vet been produced which does not yield most extraordinary inequalities. With regard to the manning scale for the stokehold that has been proposed in the Australian Report, taking 100 vessels on our own coasts, it yields, as regards 50, extraordinary discrepancies up and down from the present manning, which manning is agreed to by the men and by the masters. Consequently, no scale has been produced as yet to show, to my satisfaction, that you can by a si ale fixed on a certain formula, arrive at any equality Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I do not wish to interrupt Mr. Thomson, but 1 thought it was usual, when a man moved a motion, for him to be allowed to speak on it fust. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I thought you had stopped. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I stopped because you went on. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: Excuse me; I do not think Mr. Hughes will accuse me of interruption. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: No; I thought you were going to take a point of order. The CHAIRMAN : Mr. Thomson has been addressing the Confeience on merits. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I will let Air. Thomson finish now. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I have only a few words to add. I do not know what Mr. Hughes means by that motion. I do not know whether he means a Manning Committee, which will deal with every vessel, or whether he means a scale applicable by formula to every vessel, but if it is to be not a committee or the Board of Trade dealing with every vessel on its own merits, but a scale which is to apply universally to all vessels according to a certain formula, then I say that before we decide in favour of that, in the interests of the Empire tend of Australian shipping, we ought to have a scale produced which will give effective and equal results. Until that is produced, I cannot support manning scale based on formula, if Mr. Hughes means that. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Well, Mr. Chairman, all I wish to urge is this. Everything that can be said in favour of a manning scale has been, I presume, said over and over again. I do'not wish to say more than that in my opmion it is very necessarv to have a basis of some kind. I admit everything that Mr. Thomson said about the extraordinary difficulty, and, indeed in many cases impossibility, of fixing an effective or suiti'hle scale, but at the same time, one ought to be fixed There ought to be some basis, and the Royal Commission has recommended what it considered a reasonable and practicable one. To deal with anomalies it suggests the appointment of a committee; and I see that in your last Act, Mr. President, you have appointed a