A.—sa

92

KEI'OKT 01-' t'HOCEEDINQS OF THE CONFERENCE.

CAPTAIN CHALMERS ; In our coasting trade we have never had a case. The only one was one which happened in the North Sea. in I.road daylight. 'There were three hands and an office] on deck. 'They were painting the chart house, and the officer very unwisely went off the bridge to help the men paint tin- chart house, and a fishing craft was run down simply because- he was not on the bridge. It was not because he was tired or sleepy, but doing something which he ought not to havedone. The CHAIRMAN : Was his certificate suspended? Captain CHALMERS i Yes. Tin. (II VIRMAN : We have ample powers, subject to the appeal to the Court provided by the Act? Captain CHALMERS: Yes, certainly. .Mn. HAVBLOOE WILSON : All on dock - ll.is. W. M. HUGHES: Oh. no; Ido not think so. The CHAIRMAN : No. Mr. Hughes will bear me out there. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: What Captain Chalmers has said with regard to the scale has impressed me very much with reference to the 3£ tons, namely, that they regard tin- 34 tons, when the question arises of whether a ship is undermanned or not undermanned ; they ask, " How "many tons of coal a clay are you in the habit of deal " ing with?" and if it is more than tons per man they consider that a prinid facie case has been made out in favour of undermanning. Captain CHALMERS : With regard to the other I oint, as to the suicides of firemen, I have the official return of the five years from 1901 to 1900 inclusive, and tin total number of suicides in British ships amongst Bremen and trimmers registered in the United Kingdom during that pel iod was 152. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : Those are what are put down as suicides, but what about disappearances': Captain CHALMERS: The disappeaiaiues which are put down as supposed suicides are 159. The CHAIRMAN : In five years? Captain CHALMERS: Together, that is 311 in five years. The CHAIRMAN : It is about 60 a year. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : What about the deaths from excessive heat, heart failure, and so on? CAPTAIN CHALMERS: On shore in this country thereturn of suicides is 250 to every million people. If you take that 60 a year and apply it to 120,000 firemen, it is a little -higher. Sir JOSEPH WARD : It is 480 to the million. Mu. HAVELOCK WILSON : Where are you going to get 120,000 firemen? Captain CHALMERS: In the mercantile marine. Mu. HAVELOCK WILSON : You cannot get any such figures. Captain CHALMERS : Yes, you do. The lascars are included. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : Even it you take- the lascars in, you cannot get 120,000 firemen. Captain CHALMERS : It is 120,000 from our official returns. Tin. CHAIRMAN : Would this meet your view, Mr. Hughes? We prefer proceeding by something which is more elastic-. We are agreed in principle. Would something of this sort meet your view:—"That this Con- " fcience approves of the principle of provisions to pre- " vent dangerous undermanning, applicable to all United "Kingdom, Australian, and New Zealand ships ' Hon. W .M. HUGHES : I see after what Captain Chalmers has said that it is the practice to impose some restrictions, and there is a scale, because there must be one man on the look-out, one at the wheel, and one with the officer on the bridge. I do not care how many— that is a matter for experts to speak about, not for me.

It is a matter which concerns each ship. You have a scale for officers, there must be a man to each watch, and there must be a certificated captain in all but the home trade cargo ships; and you could stop him if you liked bec:ause you might say, "This ship is not ■ seaworthy because this man is incompetent. ' Then for the stokers you have the V 2 tons. So that there really is a scale. The CHAIRMAN : Not quite. That is a minimum. A scale runs up and down. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Suppose say some official basis—that is all I care about. The CHAIRMAN : Our basis is unseaworthiness and danger to human life through undermanning. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Your practical basis is 3_ tons. 11..n. W. M. HUGHES: Yes, for the stokers. Anil on the deck, one on the bridge, on on the watch, and one at the wheel. As to whether there should be seven at the wheel or 15, or a cwt. for each stoker, or 10 tons, that is a matter for argument as to the kind of ship and the kind of coal, and so on. CAPTAIN CHALMERS: We .all it a minimum stanelarel. The CHAIRMAN : We can agree to your resolution in that form. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: You can put any rider you like. The CHAIRMAN : We do not quite like, the word " scale." Sm WILLIAM LYNE: I think alt.i the remarks which have fallen from Captain Chalmers, we ought to put in the minimum tons. Tin: CHAIRMAN : W'c- could not do it. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: That is what we propose in ■our Rill. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Oh, no; I do not think we need put it in. That only applies to the stoker. We have evidence of the highest authority on this business, and he says 'A± tons, anil our report says tons. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : And our Ril] says tons. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : We all say the same thing. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON: The New Zealand lawsays horse-power. Mr. FERNIE : If you insert anything at all, it will prevent improvements being made "which may come on later on. We may find a lot of improvements later on. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: I certainly object to not having a minimum. 'Tut CHAIRMAN : Seeing we are substantially ..greed in principle, would these weirds meet the view expressed: "'That this Conference approves of the principle of a minimum standard of manning applicable "to all Dnited Kingdom, Australian, and New Zealand " ships " ? Sm WILLIAM LYNE : After the remarks of Captain Chalmers, what objection can there- be- Io fixing it, at •!! lons, because that is what everyone seems to agree Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We want elasticity. HON. W. M. HUGHES: That only applies to stokers. My opinion is worth nothing as compared with I Chalmers's. To say that three men are sufficient to keep watch, which is all the scale says, is on the face of it insufficient, docs not say anything at all. because you might send a ship of 10,000 tons to sea with only 12 men or !l men, and that we say is quite inadequately manned. However, I am not going to say that you would allow a ship so manned to go to sea. But the 3£ tons is . different altogether. It could not be undermanned in ttiestokehold. Mr. BELCHER : If we get a resolution agreeing to the minimum principle, then I think both from the