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94

REPORT OF I-ROOEEDINCi* OF THE CONFERENCE.

Mu. HAVELOCK WILSON : I can only promise the Board of Trade that they will hear more about this later on in the House. ll.in. W. M. 11l CHIOS : 1 shall not insist. I do not see it will affect tin- matter. It cannot prejudice the matter just to put "this applies to deck and stoke -■ hold." Mu. MILLS: 1 may say that I am interested in Australia also, and I know the views of Australian shipowners with regard to this matter, which was very fully gone into before the Commission, of which Mr. Hughes is the able exponent here. 'This question of fixing a number of tons per clay was very strongly object,-,] to by shipowners in Australia, for the reasons stated by Mr. Norman Hill, that the conditions in each ship were quite different. In one- ship the seamen and firemen together can easily handle 5 tons, while in other ships :i tons would be a hard day's work. It is im possible to fix anything like a standard scale, for that reason they objected even to tons being looked upon as (he stan,lanl scale. 'The shipowners theie are quite willing that the scale should be decided by sonic authority, and that each ship should he considered on its merits; either by the Departmental officers or by an Advisory Committee to he appointed. _ Hon. DUGALD THOMSON :A C mittee was what t hey recommended. Mil. MILLS: Mr. Hughes admits that a Committee is advisable, hut he lavs stress upon the point that they must have a standard to go by, and that is 3_ tons a day. I have hail opportunities of discussing the matter with Mr. Hughes, and have pointed out that if 3£ tons a clay is fixed as a standard, and a Coinmittee is appointed with power to vary it in some degree, that Committee as a matter of fact will go little beyond the 3_ tons. 'They will not consider them selves at liberty to consider the position of a ship in which "i tons a clay would he a fair clay's work. The result of fixing 3_ tons a clay as a standard would bean enormous increase in the manning of ships on the Australian .oast, and they would he compelled in many eases to carry useless men for whom there is no work. 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : That is not pressed as part of Hie proposition. It is simply now the general principle. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: We have got a ship running between Melbourne and Launceston, which has an apparatus by means of which all the ashes are thrown out. Mn. MILLS : W'c- have 30 or 3(1 ships fitted with it. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: I wanted to know whethei that was a savin, of labour. Mil. MILLS: It must be: otherwise the men would have to' put the ashes out by hand. Sm WILLIAM LYNE: I just wanted to know. That is a case where there may he a lowering of the standaid. Mn. MILLS: I will give you a still more striking case. A ship of large power and consumption would under that Act be obliged to carry what you call the minimum—what 1 call the maximum number of men, regardless of whether it was steaming 'J.(Km. 3.(100. ~i 5,000 miles, or 500 miles, and regardless .if whether shewas engaged ill a trade between ports where she would be able to replenish her bunkers every day or two, when there would be little or no work for the trimmers to do, or whether she was steaming 5,000 miles or 20,000 miles, when she would require an army of trimmers to handle the coal. The same law would apply to a ship under those different conditions. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: 'Thai shows the advantage of having a Committee to consider everything. Mu. MILLS: When the ship is efficiently manned .an only he decided by a Committee, and not by attempting to fix anything in the nature of the Australian standard like 3.', tons. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : We ought not to discuss this at all.

'The CHAIRMAN : I rather felt that we were entei ing into a discussion of detail. Mk. MILLS : It has been mentioned very freely. I'iik CHAIRMAN : It was not pressed. We are all generally agreed as to the principle. I should like to carry a perfectly unanimous resolution here. I should like to have the representatives of the shipowners herewith us, if we can. I have suggested to them that they might he willing to adopt the words of the- Australian Bill —that is the old Bill - Section 200: "No ship "shall he deemed seaworthy under this Act unless she "shall be in a fit state as to number and qualifications "of crew, including officers, to encounter the ordinate "perils of the voyage then entered upon." I have left out all about cargo and ballast, which we have had already. That seems to put the thing very clearly, and I think that we might adopt that. Then we do not entei into a discussion as to tons of coal or horse-power or anything of that sort. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: We adopted practically the terms of the judgment in the ease of Hedley V. The Pinkney Steamship Company. Thk CHAIRMAN : I left out the words in the Act about cargo and ballast, and simply , online,l it (~ the number and qualifications of the crew, including officers. It will read : "No ship shall be deemed seaworthy "unless she is in a fit state as Io number and qualifica"tions of the crew, including officers, Io encounter the "ordinary perils of the voyage then entered upon." Hon. W. M. HUGHES: 'There is only one thing which is lacking there, and that is all mention of a definite basis. Now it is this very definite basis that I thought was a new principle with the Board of Trade, hut which they say is not. a principle at all. Sin WILLIAM LYNE: 1 am prepared to accept Ihat after Hie remarks of Captain Chalmers. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : After tin- statement of Cap tain Chalmers I am perfectly prepared to accept thai. with that interpretation put upon the- section. Mr. BELCHER: Before this matte, goes Io Ih,- vol,-. I want I,i say a word upon it. seeing that 1 come from a Colony when- a manning .scale is in existence. 'Thk CHAIRMAN : Do you accept this? Mil. BELCHER: No. I do not accept it at all: and I am going to give my reasons for it. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: You can keep that manning s.ale still if you like. We do not interfere with that. Thk CHAIRMAN: We do not interfere with it at .ill. Mr. BELCHES : I quite understand that. Thr CHAIRMAN : And we- do not interfere with tlnAustralian proposal about coal. Mu. BELCHER : I understand there is no attempt to interfere with any legislation we have- in existence in New Zealand. The proposal before the Conference is that there shall be a suggestion made to the British shipowners that they should establish a minimum manning scale of some description. My own opinion ; IS ■' practical seaman, is that the minimum that has been suggested by Captain Chalmers for the deck pur poses is altogether inadequate. It has I n stated here that any vessel over 700 tons Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : 7,000. Mn. BELCHER: 700 tons—is fully manned. ,„. matte, what her e-apacity above 700 tons is. provided she __e got three men in a watch. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Three men in the deck watch, is it not? Mn. BELCHER: That is the statement made by the responsible official of the British Board of Trade 1 siv as a practical seaman that that is altogether inadequate and I shall not agree under any circumstances to that being the minimum. Ti.k CHAIRMAN: It is not. We an- „_( p.., slrl „ it. '