A.—sa

96

REPORT OF THOrKEDINOS OF THE CONFERENCE.

existence you will never know the exact c.al consumption, and the result is you will not know the proper number of men to put on board that ship. So far as New Zealand ships ships going Io New Zealand are concerned, the work in the stokehold is getting a great deal harder than it was previously; the stokeholes arc more cramped than what they were. The' steam space of the vessel is being cramped as much as possible, which necessitates harder and more incessant work. I say that in opposition to the statement which has been made here —that there are appliances in existence which have a tendency to lessen the work of the men. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Is the New Zealand scale to., heavy? Mn. BELCHER : For what ! Hon. W. M. HUGHES : For stokers'. Mn. BELCHES : I can only say this, that if some of the ships in New Zealand were manned on the bare minimum allowed under the schedule, the ve-sse-l could not possibly gel along. Tin: CHAIRMAN: That shows, surely, the danger of a rigid minimum. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON: Well, it might be worse. Mu. BELCHER : I do not think it does that at all. When I say the vessel could not get along, she would not get along as fast as she would if she had a proper numr,ei of men on hoard : thev could not get the results out of th,- ship. 'That is one thing which is very certain. Mil. FERNIE : That will lie a loss to the- owners. Mu. BELCHER : 1 am only mentioning this to showthat it is necessary to have a minimum, and the minimum, so far as the deck manning is concerned, should be considerably higher than what has been proposed for the British vessels. Anothei factor which should enter into the manning of the deck department is th.' pas certificate. I consider it is one of the most important factors that there is in regard to a passen_,-i ship, because it means this : if you have 12 or II or 10 or IS and in some cases 'JO life saving appliances on board thai ship, and the vessel meets with a casualty, and there is no one to man those boats, il will simply mean (hat the passengers will have to scramble for themselves. I take il there is a duty cast upon all shipowners to make adequate provision' for the safety of the people they carry. I say if they have life appliances and no one to man inein. the ship is not properly manned and the in(erests of (he passengers are not being looked after. 'Tin; CHAIRMAN : I think I will put the resolution now 1., (he Conference. I take il it will be moved in the words of the Australian Bill. 1 am going to put it in these words : " No ship shall he deemed seaworthy unless "she is - in a lit state as to number and qualifications of "crew, including office-is, Io encounter the ordinary perils ■of the voyage then entered upon." Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Do you mind putting it in plain words so that it can be added to the report, because (his is rather an important thing from my standard, that I was quite willing to accept that after hearing the statement of the Board of Trade officials, notably Captain Chalmers. Thk CHAIRMAN : That will be on the- notes. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Very well. Sm JOSEPH WARD: I elo not want to de-tain you a minute. Tin CHAIRMAN : I think you have already addressed (he Conference. I do not wish to be hard, but still we could not possibly get cm. Sin JOSEPH WARD: I said Ihat Australian shippers would strongly object to anything in thv shape of s 34 i.m standard being set down. After I spoke-. Sir William Lyne, in accepting this proposal, said he did s.. on the understanding that S_ tons would be- looked upon as the- standard. 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : We have nothing to do with that at all. 'That is a matter entirely for the Australians. We do not dictate to the Australian Commonwealth in

.1 to that and do not presume to dictate, and they do not dictate to us; that is entirely a matter for Ihem. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : Will you mind reading ii again': 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : "No ship shall In deemed sea- " worthy einless she is in a fit state as to number and "qualifications of crew, including officers, to encounter "the ordinary perils of the voyage- then entered upon." {Carried unanimously.) Sir JOSEPH WARD : I wish to ask permission to alter On- wording of this slightly, and I hope it will commend itself Io those present. I wish to make the resolution read with the words after " desirability of" left out. and to put in : "Giving to masters, mates, and iieers the designation of officers in the Imperial "Shipping Act and its Regulations." At present under the law they come under the designation of seamen. The resolution will then read : "That it be a recommendation to the Board of Trade to consider the desirability of "giving to masters, mates, and engineers the designation "of officers in the Imperial Shipping Act and its Regulations." Under our law, officers and masters, mates and engineers, are known as officers. Hon. W \l. HITCHES : Masters and officers. Sm JOSEPH WARD: Yes. Under the Imperial Act they are known as seamen, so that it is a recommendation to tin- Board of Trade—simply a recommendation to them that the designation should be given to them in the Act. of " officers." Mu. NORMAN HILL: I think there is perhaps a cat eh in this, that it is against the officers. Just at the pie-sent time I am not quite sure how you would affect their position. For instance, if yon take the provisions of the- imperial Act as tei the repatriation of seamen Sn: JOSEPH WARD: He is not mentioned as an officer. Mn NORMAN HILT,: T am speaking against the shipowners' interests. At the present time the officer is man and the master is not. If yon take him out of (he category of seamen and put him into a new category yon might affect his position under the Imperial Act. 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : What about workmen's compensation ? Mb. NORMAN HILL : Thai is in tin- same position, Sir JOSEPH WARD: This is only a recommendation to the Board of Trade, and if you find there is going to be any serious trouble involved. I presume Mr. Lloyd George would not allow it to go through. Mn. NORMAN HILL: I would not like officers Io think I'm: CHAIRMAN : To think (hat we were depriving them of the benefits of those- Acts. 'They enjoy them now. 'Th.- moment they become officers they .ease to enjoy those benefits. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : Is that a motion of sufficient substance ' Sm JOSEPH WARD: It could only be done by an amendment to your Act. anil 1 take it you would make provision to «ave all their rights. \lu. HAVELOCK WILSON : You would have- to .liter almost every section. Hon. DUGALD 'THOMSON : How can we expe-.l the British representatives to assent to this if it may have serious effects? Siu JOSEPH WARD : It cannot have unless yon do it by Act. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : But 1 hey are asked to assent t" it. MB, NORMAN HILL: It would not he right to sup port such a resolution without their being here. Sin WTI.LIA.Vi LYNE : In (he Act which I shall have charge of probably, we deal with this in the interpretation clause, and we- describe the word "officer" in relation to a ship to mean the master, mates, and engineers of the ship. That is the way we propose to deal with il.