97

A.- 5a

RETORT OF I'HOPKEDINQS OK THE fONFEREXCK.

Mr. HAVELOCK WILSON : I do not think the Biitish officers would be thankful for that alteration, as it would shut out the officers from a good many privileges that they enjoy under the different sections of the Act— repatriation and other things. Mn. DUNLOP : An officer is an officer, but he is still a soldier. Thk CHAIRMAN : Are you, Sir Joseph Ward, very anxious to press this? Mr. HISLOP : On behalf of New Zealand, I should like this. It is purely a recommendation to the Board of Trade. 'The CHAIRMAN : Supposing we put it that the suggestion has emanated from New Zealand, and consider what can be done. Mn. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We will put it on our dossier or papers when an amending Act conies forward, to consider it, but we think as a recommendation this is rather too small a matter. Sir JOSEPH WARD : I will put it, that this be a request to the Board of Trade to put it upon their papers for consideration. Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We will do so, but we prefer you do not pass the resolution. Sir JOSEPH WARD : That might be put upon your own agenda for consideration. Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We will do that. The CHAIRMAN : We are aftaid the officers might think it was an attempt on our part to deprive them of certain privileges they enjoy at the present moment. Sir JOSEPH WARD : They want this to apply to the Imperial Act as well, if it is possible to do it. Now, as a matter of courtesy to these officers, there is no harm in the resolution being put on record : " That it be a " recommendation to the Board of Trade to put it upon "their agenda, as resolved." Thk CHAIRMAN : It will appear in the papers tomorrow that we passed this resolution, without any explanation. 'The officers will see it, and they will say : " W'c- are enjoying certain rights as seamen of which we "will be- deprived as officers," and therefore they might think it was an attempt on the part of shipowners or somebody to keep them out of this privileged category. Sii* JOSEPH WARD : I would suggest we get over that by putting in " without deprivation of any of the " rights accruing to officers." Hon W. M. HUGHES : I do not think you need do that at all. The recommendation would not take anything from them. Thk CHAIRMAN : "Without prejudice to any lights " they enjoy at present under the designation of 'sea- ■ men.'" Very well. This is the resolution: "That " it be a recommendation to the Board of Trade in any amending Act to consider the desirability of giving to "masters, mates, and engineers the designation 'officers,' " in the Imperial Merchant Shipping Act and its Regula- " tions, without prejudice to any rights they enjoy as - seaman." [Carried unanimously.) Mr. LLEWELLYN SMITH -. We are not to bring in a special Bill for this ': Tin. CHAIRMAN : Oh, no. Sir JOSEPH WARD: In an amending Act. Sin WILLIAM LYNE : I do not think there is any necessity for me to make a long speech on this. The motion is: "'That every possible encouragement shouhl "be given by legislation, and otherwise, to the employ " ment of British seamen in preference to foreigners." 'The shipowners have put papers giving certain numbers in place of other certain numbers. The Royal Commission also did the same, and those arc all available. I feel there could scarcely be any opposition to a resolution of this kind which simply carries the principle, and therefore at present, at all events, I do not think there is any necessity for me to make a speech about it. You do not know what has taken place at the Conference with reference to it.

14—A. sa.

Thk CHAIRMAN : Might I ask—would you mind reading it like this: "That every possible encourage- " ment should be given to the employment of British seamen on British vessels," leaving out the words "in prefe-rence to foreigners." It comes to the same thing. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I know you are very tender about these things. The CHAIRMAN ; Our trade is an international one, you must remember. We have half the carrying trade of the world. We are doing more carrying for foreigners than we are doing for our own country. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I do not mind. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I think Sir William has overlooked something there. That word "foreigners" does not include the whole of those persons that Sir William is desirous of affecting. As the President has just stated, the object from his standpoint is the employment of British seamen on British vessels. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: I am agreeable. I do not want to detain you. The CHAIRMAN : " That every possible encourage- " ment should be given " Sir WILLIAM LYNE : "Should be given by legisla- " tion and otherwise." The CHAIRMAN : I do not know whether that is necessary, because we have now got a Committee to consider, and I hope we are going to get some money for it. I do not know that yon want "by legislation or "otherwise." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : Unless you have any serious objection, I should like to keep those words in. The CHAIRMAN : No, I have not. Mr. NORMAN HILL : We have the strongest objection to "by legislation." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : This is only establishing the principle. The chances are we will legislate. Mn. NORMAN HILL : We could not possibly accept the bald resolution in this form, even if you left out legislation or otherwise," because we have had instances given us here, in the course of the Conference, of the hard fight Australian shipowners and the New Zealand shipowners are having to maintain their trade with Fiji and the islands Now all our trade is carried on under similar conditions. We have to fight for every ton of cargo we carry. We have to fight with conditions which are far more against us than any conditions appertaining in the Pacific. The CHAIRMAN : But surely you would not object as a shipowner to every possible encouragement being given to the employment of British seamen on British vessels. 'This is not prohibition. Mu. NORMAN HILL: It is not prohibition, but before we accept such a statement we want to have it clearly recognised that we are not saying that the State has anv right to impose upon us restrictions or obligations. Thk CHAIRMAN : They are not restrictions at all. One of the things I had in my mind is that we know a committee at the present moment is sitting to consider this very question. 'There may be a recommendation that a certain sum of money should be expended upon apprenliiing for instance to encourage British sailors. We cannot do that without legislation. Mr. CON : It is the expression of a pious hope. Thk CHAIRMAN: "Given by legislation or other- ■ wise " is suggested. / Sm WILLIAM LYNE : I am quite agreeable to that. \ln. FERNIE : This looks as if in the opinion of the Conference we should be restricted. In. CHAIRMAN : Oh, no. Mn. FERNIE : Why should British shipowners be restricted any more than a British hotelkeeper from having foreign waiters.