A.—sa

116

REPORT OF PROCEEDINCiS OF THE CONFERENCE.

Sir WILLIAM LYNE : As long as you do not take away from us the right of dealing with them when they are trading to Australia. The CHAIRM \N : We have already assented to resolutions which give you the fullest powers. Sir WILLIAM LY'NE: I think you yourself pointed out how we can deal with them. The CHAIRMAN : If you said that no Hindoo should be employed in ships on the coasting trade, I do not suppose that we could possibly assent to a law it hat does not belong to my Department) expressly framed in that way, because it is a reflection upon millions of the King's subjects. But yon can do it in ways which are quite as effective. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : We have ways of doing it. The CHAIRMAN : Yes. I beg you not to ask us to assent to a resolution which goes outside your acknowledged powers, and which will bring us into great trouble in India. It is, as a matter of fact, now the subject of conference and of discussion in India. They are very sensitive on these points, and therefore I think it would be a great misfortune if at an Imperial Conference of this kind we passed a resolution which will be regarded by them as a great offence, Mr. Belcher's object has been attained. I was unwilling to rule the matter out, because I know it is one of very considerable importance in New Zealand and in the Commonwealth. But his object has been attained. He has made it perfectly clear that the Commonwealth and New Zealand have a perfect right to deal with the matter in so far as their own coasting arrangements are concerned. But I do not think it can be claimed that where you have trade between two countries—l do not care what the countries are, whether it is China, or Germany, or America, or India—you are able to say, "We will only allow shfps containing our "own subjects to trade between these two countries.'! Sir WILLIAM LYNE : We can do it in one way, but not in another. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : On our own ships, of course, we can do it ; there is no doubt about that. The (HAIRMAN : That is a different matter when you are legislating with regard to ships registered in your own country. Sir WILLIAM LVNK : We can do it in any ships, whether our own or not, which are in our coasting trade. The CHAIRMAN : Ves. But it is so utterly opposed to all international traditions. We could not do it with regard to (lermany or any other country, and would not dream of doing it, nor would they dream of doing it with us; and it is rather hard that the amenities which are preserved between one nation and another should not obtain between different parts of the sameEmpire. Sir WILLIAM LVNK: How about what they do in .-vmerica ? The CHAIRMAN : That is purely with regard to coasting. America would not dream, supposing there was a trade with India or China, of saying, "No Indian or "Chinese sailor shall ever enter our ports engaged on "vessels in the Indian or Chinese trade." That would really be regarded by the United States as an act of impertinence. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: The Japanese do trade directly with China and with San Francisco. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Was not a case given at Honolulu! The CHAIRMAN : That is an American port. That is a totally different matter. Mr. COX : It is as much coasting as trading between the Cook Islands and New Zealand is. The CHAIRMAN : The result is that, practically, America has no international trade at all — absolutely none. She use-d to have half or nearly half the trade of the Atlantic It has now been captured almost entirely by us. Fifty per cent, of the international carrying trade is done by us. But that is another matter. I therefore ask Mr. Belcher, now that his object has been attained in the discussion we have had here to-day, not to put us to

the necessity, not merely of voting against this, but of making it appear that the representatives of the colonies have pressed upon the Imperial Government a resolution which will create a good deal of ill-feeling in India and which will be regarded by them as a reflection upon our fellow subjects there. 1 trust Mr. Belcher will now see his way to withdraw the resolution. Ron. W. M. HUGHES : I would like to ask you whether you would regard more favourably a suggestion thrown out by Mr. Wilson: "That this Conference is "opposed to any discrimination between coloured and "white .lews with respect to accommodation, superficial "space, and other general conditions provided in any "Imperial, Commonwealth, or New Zealand law." 1 know something may be said against that, but it is an entirely different sort of thing after all. It does not aim at the colour line. It may be passed without offending any national susceptibilities, and practically it is similar to the method which Mr. Bertram Cox pointed out we had adopted instead of putting a colour test in regard to immigration. 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : 'That is a very different propose tion. There, Australia has the right to impose such conditions upon her own ships. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I wanted to know whether the Imperial (.ov-rnment would consider that more favourable. 'Tin: CHAIRMAN : The Imperial Government would equally resist that, for this reason. Where a British seaman comes forward and presses Parliament to improve his accommodation and conditions, then the Imperial Parliament says, "Very well, we will do it," and we have done it elsewhere. Rut when the Lascar ccmes to us and says, "Do not do it, because it will have the eff. "excluding us from employment," that is a different matter. It is very hard to legislate for the benefit of a class which says, " For Heaven's sake, do not do it! " Mn HAVELOCK WILSON : I hardly think that it is i en to keep harping on the fact that the Lascars sent petitions. I know as a matter of fact that those petitions were prepared by the shipping companies, and the Lascars had nothing to do with them whatever. I think it is unfair to keep putting that forward. I disagree with it entirely, and I always have done. I examined those men l.e-fore the Commission on the Mercantile Murine, and 1 know how they were brought there. I know all about it. It was at the instigation of the shipping companies. 1,11 CHAIRMAN: Supposing you approached the Lascars—a perfectly impartial person like yourself—and said to them, " Would you like to have legislation which "will put you in the same condition with regard to "manning, accommodation, food scale, and everything "else as the British sailor'' " Do you suppose they'would say yes ? Mil. HAVELOCK WILSON : I do. I believe they would say that they are perfectly satisfied to be employed on their own coast. They have a right to be employed on then own coast; they have a right to do their own trade. Rut the Lascar and Chinamen do object to be taken into high latitudes and compelled to do trade which they never agreed to do. Centlemen here who do not know much about it may dissent, but I know something about it. Mr. BELCHER : I have- listened very carefully to the various opinions expressed with regard to the employment of this class of labour. With a great many of them I entirely disagree. Gentlemen representing the various departments, who have spoken on this matter, have pointed out to me many Imperial difficulties which will arise, and seeing that I am now assured that, so far as vve are concerned in Australia and New Zealand, we have the power and the right, if we choose to exercise it, of excluding that class of labour, I will now, with the permission of the Conference, withdraw the motion altogether. (Motion by lenre withdrawn.) Sin JOSEPH WARD : I move, "That the Board of 1 rade be urged to take into immediate consideration the "question of eyesight tests with a view to imposing- a higher standard of efficiency than at present required " 1 move this resolution because there are different systems in operation which involve a very great deal of trouble and in some cases those concerned have hardships imposed upon them by the different grades and methods of testing which apply under the Board of Trade rules. I have one