115

A.—sa

KUrORl' OF PROCEEDINGS OF THE CONFERENCE

of Commons and elsewhere that the Lascars are British subjects. Now, I want to say emphatically that a large number of the Lascars, perhaps half of them, who sign on Rritish ships, are not British subjects at all, but subjects of foreign countries. That 1 am certain of. The same thing applies to the Chinamen. We are told that the Chinamen are British subjects. That I emphatically deny. Mu. COX : Enormous numbers are. Mn. HAVELOCK WILSON : I know, but I am quite aware of the fact that a large number of Chinamen are said to hail from Hong Kong who do not belong to Hong Kong. Men are entered on the ship's articles as Hong Kong Chinamen who were perhaps never in Hong Kong in their lives. That is done as a matter of convenience. A large number of Chinamen and Lascars, I say, do not belong to the Rritish possessions at all, but are men belonging to foreign Governments, I do not exclude any men. I never have advocated the policy of excluding any man on the ground of being a Chinaman, or a Lascar, or a foreigner. What I have always contended for, and what I strongly contend for now, is this : if a shipowner prefers to employ a Lascar or Chinaman, let him give them the same conditions that he gives to an ordinary British subject. Now I want, to tell the India Office this : that then- is no proper supervision of the engagement of the Lascars in ports of India. The Lascars arc very often compelled to sign agreements of which they do not understand a single line. The result is we have a good deal of trouble in English ports when those Lascars refuse to proceed on a voyage somewhere where they never agreed to go. Frequently those L are sent to gaol because they refused to fulfil an , ment that I hey did not understand and knew nothing at all about. If the Government would say that if a Lascar is employed on a Rritish ship he shall have the value amount of accommodation as a white man then we are getting ni-ai the mark, and I should say also that the Government who are giving out mail contracts should snv lo the shipowner who is getting a big subsidy from the Government (and one company is getting over £400,000 a year, noi in the mail service alone, but cargocarrying boats) ihat they must pay the English rate of Now I know the answer to that has been given more than ..nce in the' House of Commons, namely that 'I"' Lascars an- engaged at ports in India. Rut l' again deny that, and say that very often the Lascars are engaged, in ports in Ihe United Kingdom. It is tine that i hey are brought from India for ships in ports in the [Tilted Kingdom. I advocate before this Conference that whatevei legislation may be passed, either in our Parliament or in the New Zealand Parliament or in the Australian Parliament, it should be laid down that the Lascar must lu.ee- the same conditions that are given to other seamen on British ships. I can quite understand the ease- with regard to Lascars being engageel on ships registered and owned in India ; there I see the Indian law applies: bul that ought not to apply to ships owned and registered in this country, or in Australia, or Ne-w Zealand. Sm.WILLIAM LYNE : Did I understand it was said that the arrangement was that Lascars were not to eo beyond 38° N. ? The CHAIRMAN : Yes, in the North Atlantic. Sir WILLIAM I.VNK: Why does not that apply to the South ■'. VV3 Captain CHALMERS: I think there is a regulation about Cap.- Horn: they are not allowed to go round I here. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I find they are going far below 38° —to Hobart. They are doing that now, and it is very cold there. I am a Tasmanian, and I know it is very cold, r only raised this question to be quite sure; lam very glad indeed to know it. It will be a help in somethings that I would like to do. iMmin CHALMERS: This is ruled by the isothermal line. VVhat the Government has done is to take the isothermal line—the equal heat line—in each hemisphere. For instance, if you take the latitude of New York, it is about IS* North, or something like that, and the line of average temperature in winter there will go right up North of Norway.

Sir WILLIAM LVNE: I am very glad to hear that there is a provision that they shall not go too far North, and I hope they will not be allowed to go too far South. Mn. lIAVKI.OCK WILSON : That is what I should like to see carried out. Tin-; CHAIRMAN : I am going to appeal to Mr. Rile her not to press this motion. In so far as trade on the coast of New Zealand and the Commonwealth is concerned, although 1 do not say that they have specifically ihe right to exclude Rritish subjects of any colour (which is a matter that I do not want to express any opinion at all upon; it is a constitutional question which I would rather not say a word about), still they have the power oi excluding Lascars by other means—by means of wages, manning, accommodation, and food scale. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: I am glad to hear that you agree with what I said. Somebody did not agree with me Tin; CHAIRMAN : That is so far as the coasting trade is concerned. There is no doubt that they can insist upon certain wage, being paid, upon certain accommodation being provided, upon a certain minimum manning scale, and a certain food scale also being imposed, which would have' the practical effect of excluding Lascars. So far as that is concerned, it is a mailer entirely for themselves and not for this Conference. But this motion goes very far beyond that. Sm WILLIAM LVNE: It goes over the universe. Tin CHAIRMAN : Especially as interpreted by Mr. Belcher, and I could not possibly accept it. It is not merely the representatives of the shipowners, but the Imperial representatives would certainly vote against it. I dei not know what would be thought in India of the British Government if they assented to a proposition of this sort,, which would exe hide Indian sailors from the benefit of a trade which we have captured from them. The Lascar is a sailor; he is an hereditary sailor since the Flood lie used to have all the coasting trade of India. Now, we have taken it away. Our steamers call there, and have practically destroyed the Lascar trade there, and the only opening they have got for sailoring, in mship. is in our steamers. They are all herediailors. .Mr. Have-look Wilson says they are not all Rritish subjects. 'That may be so. I daresay, for instance, if you go on some of the steamers, you will find natives of Oca, who are really Portuguese. They are stewards. Mu. lIAVKI.OCK WILSON : And firemen too. 'Tin: (HAIRMAN : Vou cannot sift them and insist upon certificates of origin. But in the main they are British subjects. 'They are much better paid than they ever were in their own trade, and much better treated. I hey are extraordinarily well satisfied. They have begged ami prayed and petitioned the House of Commons not I' interfere with their accommodation or their food scale I hey say it is exactly what they want. Mu. BELCHER : Who did? The CHAIRMAN : The Lascars. Mu. lIAVKLOCK WILSON: The shipping .on, punics. Thk CHAIRMAN : The Lascars have already sent a petition to the lion,.- of Commons. I know that Mill avelock W ilson has doubts about the way it was got up but they came and gave evidence themselves. There is no doubt that they are very much better paid and better ted than Ih.y used to be in their own trade. I do not suppose anyone will doubt that at all. That is the position. Suppose we were to assent to a proposition which would be a very grave reflection upon them' In "". '""' I' l '' 1 "' *ey are very touchy on the question of colour. I ,, 'men,her a great row because the late Lord BfJlsbury referred to a learned and distinguished Hindoo Mr. Naorpji. as "a black man." 'Thai c-ated a tremendous feeling throughout India. We are responsible in the government of :Son millions of these people, and therefore we could not possibly assent to it, and I ask th.- ( olonial representatives not to ask us to do so. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: I am not asking you. Tui. CHAIRMAN : I would rather not. if they can see their way. We are not interfering at all with" their legislation.