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REPORT OF PROCEEDINGS .OF THE CONFERENCE

Mb. LLEWELLYN SMITH : We should like to look at it—it is a page of small print —before we answer. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : I don't want to waste time; I don't want the discussion to last any longer than is absolutely necessary, but I want to put my position clearly. If we get the powers that they have in NewZealand —if there is any necessity to do it, there must be a great necessity before we would interfere —if we get the same powers T am quite satisfied ; I don't want anything more. Sm JOSEPH WARD : You don't want a resolution for it at all. Mb. BELCHER : I would like to ask this question : what is the official recognised storm area of the Cape Horn locality? Captain CHALMERS : A radius of 150 miles, which is about 2£°. Mr. BELCHER : Well, with regard to the question, I think that the Colonies should have some law whereby they are empowered to interfere where they think it necessary. Now, with regard to the Storm area around Cape Horn, I have had a great deal of experience in the water south of New Zealand. What I want to point out is this—that there may be cases of a ship coming to the Colonies, where she has been properly surveyed and perhaps properly marked in accordance with the Board of Trade Regulations in Great Britain, but the vessel on her passage out has, perhaps, shown such bad behaviour through being loaded to that mark, that there may be a general complaint from the whole of the crew, the master included, that the ship is not safe. That may be the case. Sir William Lyne says he knows of a case of that kind happening. I say, under those circumstances, the Colonies should have the right, notwithstanding the fact that the vessel has passed the Board of Trade Regulations, to alter her load-line if they think it necessary in the interests of the safety of the people on board. Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have that power in New Zealand ; we can absolutely alter the load-line. Mr. BELCHER : Another thing that has to be looked at is the disc which is put on the ship. If you notice a properly marked ship, you will see that allowances are made for the Indian winter and the Indian summer: that allows the ship to be submerged a matter of two or three inches below her ordinary normal load-line. And I contend, as a practical man who has had as much experience of the Southern Ocean as a good many, that it is almost a necessity to have the Atlantic load-line mark on vessels going from Australia round Cape Horn. Mr. NORMAN HILL : What, steamers ? Mb. BELCHER : I won't go so far as steamers where they are loaded with coal for consumption, but so far as the sailing ship is concerned, who does not lighten herself by coal consumption, I think the North Atlantic load-line should be attached to these vessels going round the Horn. because there is no part in winter that is more bleak, where there are heavier gales of wind, than from Australia down to the Horn. And I contend that there is as much necessity for the preservation of life and property down there as there is across the North Atlantic. Captain CHALMERS : There are steady high winds, if you like. The CHAIRMAN : Sir Joseph Ward, I have been looking at Section 207, subsection 4, and I see it says : " Ships which have a disc marked in accordance with "the requirements of the Imperial Board of Trade shall "not requite to be remarked under the provisions of this "Act." , Sm JOSEPH WARD : For purposes of safety we can cause ships to be detained irrespective of that, on the grounds of safety, and I think no one takes exception to that. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I should like to ask Captain Chalmers a Question, if I might—under Clause 206 of the Bill upon which the Commission sat, page 288 of vour Blue-book we say this: "No ship shall be deemed sea- " worthy under this Act unless she is in a fit state as to " condition of hull and equipment, boilers and machinery, "stowage of cargo, number and qualifications of crew, " including officers, and in every other respect, to en- " counter the ordinary perils of the voyage then entered

"upon." Now, in respect of ships laden with coal —ii a lower load-line is wanted on any class of ships, it is on that class of ships —that is the class that is most likely to be over-laden. W'e could not get evidence upon the point, but we have reason to believe occasionally, although thev are not submerged below her proper mark, still that mark is not sufficient, and if they meet heavy weather they are liable to be waterlogged and sink. And we say, under Clause 206, v,e have power to deal with such ships. Does Captain Chalmers agree with me? Captain CHALMERS : I am afraid that is a legal point. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What does the Board of Trade think ? The CHAIRMAN : Mr. Cunliffe, will you answer that? Mr. CUNLIFFE : Would you mind repeating it? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: Clause 206 says: "No ship " shall be deemed seaworthy under this Act unless she is "in a fit state as to condition of hull and equipment, " boilers and machinery, stowage of cargo, number and "qualifications of crew, including officers, and in every "other respect to encounter the ordinary perils of the " voyage then entered upon." Sm JOSEPH WARD : There can be no question if the Government considered the ship unsafe, irrespective of the load-line, they would stop her from going to sea. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I want to ask whether we have that power under Clause 206? Captain CHALMERS: If the vessel is in the same structural condition as she was originally, we absolutely do not interfere with her, but if we find she is not in the same structural condition we withdraw the certificate; we do not detain the ship. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: What we want to get at is this : here is a vessel, the load-line may be perfectly suitable for vessels having ordinary cargo, but say with a stie-i ial cargo of coal, a dead weight going a bad trip, I think under that section we ought lo have power if the ship is old or in any other respect not fitted to encounter the ordinary perils of the voyage, we ought to have power to prevent her going. Tui-: CHAIRMAN : Yes. if she is in other respects not fitted. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : If she were 20 years old, under Captain Chalmers, we should have to let her go. Mn. FERNIE : Why should she be any worse because she was 20 years old ? Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I do not know; but if shewere a hundred ? Captain CHALMERS: The maximum load-line represents the maximum draft to which the ship could he put with any cargo. The CHAIRMAN : This is fixing an arbitrary loadline. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I know it is, but I am not taking an arbitrary line now. I want to ask Mr. Cunliffe whether, under Section 206, that will give us power to deal with special ships? Mit. CUNLIFFE : My impression is that if a ship has left the United Kingdom and is m irked as she is required to be marked by the United Kingdom regulations or law, that if you detain her you have no right to do it. If you have safety behind your back, or some other grounds— well, the probability is there would be at once an appeal to a Court of Suivey, and the matter would be taken up as to whether you were entitled to or not. We cannot prevent you from stopping her. hut the thing would be fought out. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : My idea is that you would never stop her for that alone, assuming the ship to be in first-class condition. But this particular ship I have in my mind is not fitted to take this particular cargo. The CHAIRMAN : Because she is not in a fit structural condition ?