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hepokt of proceedings of the conference.

Hon. W. M. HUGHES : Yes. Then I think we could ileai with nearly all the cases for which legislation should be provided. And if you have a North Atlantic line for ships going via the Horn, at any rate you want it all lound Australia as well, because on occasions we have some very bad weather indeed. Mr. DUNLOP : Mr. Hughe* says, if a vessel were in a a certain structural condition she might not be able to. Now they must not interfere with a load-line which has been arranged in this country. What they have to do is to put her into a structural condition ; you must not touch the load-line. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: I am not talking now of a particular kind of ship; I am speaking of all ships. Mr. DUNLOP : If her disc and mark have been placed by the Beard of Trade, they have taken all these matters into consideration. But if something has altered that structure after the time of her having the- United Kingdom, then you can insist upon her being put back into that condition, but, you must not touch her load-line. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I mean if they are in a eon dition to demand the other mark. Mn. CUNLIFI'E : Surely we ought to be unanimous in our load-line and in our disc. It ought to be a matter to be settled. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : But you make a different loadline for a different part. We say it is bad enough to have that special load-line you make. Mr. FERNIE: All the figures are against you; you cannot show that there have been accidents around Cape Horn. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : 1 know perfectly well there have. , Mr. FERNIE ; You have a fixed idea in your mind Sm WILLIAM LYNE : I know perfectly well Cape Horn is one of the woist places in the world. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Might I point out that this resolution proposes only to deal with vessels leaving Australia. Any assent by the British authorities would inferentially mean not only vessels leaving Australia, but vessels going round the Horn from this side or coining from San Francisco or anywhere else. That is, of course, a very important thing for the British ship. 1 quite agree with Captain Chalmers. I have had some experience of the Horn. I have been in a ship on her beam ends with her cargo shifted. That ship suffered that damage going from this side, and afterwards she had to abandon her effort to get round and make for the Falkland Islands. But she came through all right in her manned condition when going in the opposite direction. It is vessels going from this side that encounter the greatest difficulties and dangers; there is no great danger from the other side. Mb. PEMBROKE : Was that going out J Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : Yes; it is a different thing altogether the other way. Mr. PEMBROKE : I have had sailing ships going to New Zealand for twenty-five years. We went by the Cape of Good Hope and home by Cape Horn, and the only trouble we had was with icebergs. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I want to point out, if this is adopted by the members of the Conference, inferentially it will mean the adoption of the Atlantic mark for all ships going round the Horn. The CHAIRMAN : In the face of the unanimous reports of our Commissions of experts who have been sitting on it, we could not possibly agree to it. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : Why object to the provisions that are in the New Zealand Act ? The CHAIRMAN : I understand they were subject to a certain despatch that was sent out there. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: You are referring to the despatch with reference to their remaining until this Conference ? The CHAIRMAN : No; I think another despatch which would suggest that some of the provisions are

ultra vires. For instance, 1 am told 209 would be limited to cases to which Clause 440 of the Imperial Act does not apply. Sm WILLIAM LVNE : We- are delaying a good deal, and if there is anything the authorities can bring forward, would it not be better for them to bring it forward ? Tin; CHAIRMAN : I think so. Mr. DUNLOP : I want to say one word. There is the point of view of the underwriters that it is the cheapest voyage round the world. Captain CHALMERS : I cannot trace a single record of a disaster coming home that way. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I am prepared to accept the provisions of the New Zealand Act without specifying the North Atlantic mark. And if this is given it won't be abused, as it is not abused in New Zealand. Tin: CHAIRMAN : Here is the despatch. May I read it? It is the despatch of Mr. Lyttelton to the Government of New Zealand, 6th March, 1905: "Referring to "your telegram of 13th February, His Majesty's Govern- " ment much regret delay in assenting to Shipping and "Seamen's Bill, which has arisen from apparent conflict "of some of its provisions with Merchant Shipping Act, " 1894. After full consideration, I have decided to advise " His Majesty to assent, and Order will accordingly be " submitted to the King in Council at first opportunity. ' Your Ministers are, of course, aware that any provisions "in Bill conflicting with Merchant Shipping Act, 1894, "are void and inoperative under Colonial Laws Validity "Act, 1665, and that any provisions purporting to regu- " late conduct of ships, and persons on ships, not registered in New Zealand when these ships are outside the " limits of the Colony must be equally inoperative. I 'shall address you shortly by despatch on the subject of " Merchant Shipping legislation." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : That means if the law does not stop it. It is there. I am prepared to take it on the same understanding. The CHAIRMAN : It is suggested that we should discuss it at this Conference, and we have discussed it. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : What is going to be the general result? All I want to do is, I want to have it understood, and I should like to have it on record, and wc can put it on record, and a clause can be drafted later on by the officials, perhaps, to make it similar to the New Zealand Act. Thk CHAIRMAN : Well, Sir William, that of course would involve a recognition on the part of the Imperial Government that where there was a conflict between the New Zealand provisions and ours, we accepted the NewZealand interpretation. Siu WILLIAM LYNE: We cannot upset your law. If the law is good The CHAIRMAN : No, I don't want the Executive to be bound over, because it is the Executive who will put the law into motion. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : We cannot possibly accept anything less than New Zealand has; we cannot go back and say, " Yes, we are prepared to accept this suggestion, "but the New Zealand people have a right to do some- ■' thing else." We cannot do that. The CHAIRMAN : No; but we accept the interpretation placed by New Zealand upon their Jaw. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : What they say is, they accept the Imperial disc. The CHAIRMAN : They made the exception that if they think a ship is unsafe on general grounds, they say they must interfere. We do not challenge that. If Australia is prepared to accept that interpretation of the law, by all means we do not challenge it. But the Imperial disc is paramount so far as we are concerned ; but if on general grounds they say she is unsafe, we never challenge that right. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: The interpretation of any section of any Act does not depend upon what the Crown law officers say. A shipowner might take a case into Court, and of course it would be the Court's interpretation of the law that would decide the matter, anet no