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REPORT OF FKOCiSEDINQS OF THB CONFERENCE.

evidence would be received as to what we think here or what they thought in Parliament. And therefore if we say we are prepared to accept what New Zealand has, and if those words mean more or less than they think, that is a question for the Courts. But we cannot have less than their words. I would not be prepared to accept them with that qualification. Tin: CHAIRMAN : When the Colonial Secretary wired the King's assent to that Bill, he made the conditions perfectly clear. I have read the despatch. We cannot possibly recede from that position. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I did not ask you to. But you cannot ask us to take a position inferior to New Zealand in this matter. The CHAIRMAN : We are quite satisfied with the New Zealand position. Siu JOSEPH WARD : There can be no doubt about this, that if Australia adopted a law similar to ours, whateiii that law means would be settled by a Superior Tribunal. That is, I think, all you can expect. You cannot expect this Conference to give an interpretation of what the law is. In our country the application of the Act has worked admirably. We have had no trouble with it. Tin: CHAIRMAN : And none with the Merchant Shipping? Sir JOSEPH WARD : No. If we found a ship which we believed to be unsafe, under our Act we would stop it. Mr. CUNLIFFE : And you have the clause: -'Ihat "ships which have the disc marked in accordance- with "the requirements of the Imperial Board of Trade shall " not require to be remarked." Sir JOSEPH WARD : We have that in our Act. Mu. I-KRNIK : There are very few sailing vessels in your trade coming home round Cape Horn. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: Is this the resolution that Sir William Lyne wishes, that the Qommonwealth accepts the New Zealand Act as regards the load-line ? Sm WILLIAM LYNE : Yes. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : I would go further than that. I would say that there should be uniformity in the shipping laws of Australia and New Zealand. That is something further. The CHAIRMAN : Will you move that. Hon. DUGALD THOMSON: Yes. "That the Com- " monwealth adopt the provisions of the New Zealand " Act with regard to the load line." That is only a matter for the Commonwealth. The CHAIRMAN : I will put that to the meeting. Mn. FERNIE: No; I think we ought to protest against any colony having the right to alter the loadline. Mr. DUNLOP : You have made it perfectly clear that the New Zealand law has no power to alter the freeboard. Mr. Hughes is saying he wants the same as New Zealand; but New Zealand has no power to alter our free-board. The CHAIRMAN : I do not know whether we have made it perfectly clear what our position is. Hon. W. M. HUGHES: What we are doing now is practically getting the power to repeat in words the terms of that section in the New Zealand Act. Mr. CUNLIFFE : I want to point out this, that one of the provisions of the New Zealand Act, 209, did not have following it the proviso : " That ships which have " the disc marked in accordance with the requirements of "the Imperial Board of Trade shall not require to be re- " marked under the provisions of this Act." I understand that that sub-section which I have just read is accepted by New Zealand in their interpretation. Therefore, when you come to formulate your Act on the basis of the New Zealand Act, see that that exception covers the whole of your legislation, and do not put it half-way

through like New Zealanel has done, because it leaves a certain amount of ambiguity. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : I object altogether to that. You are seeking to tie us down. I do not know which section comes first. Mr. CUNLIFFE :_ 207. In the New Zealanel Act you will find the exception. Hon. W. M. HUGHES : And which is the other sec tion? Mr. CUNLIFFE : 309 does not have it repeated. The CHAIRMAN : It seems to me it is perfectly clear. I cannot interpret it as a lawyer would. Mr. CUNLIFFE : I said there was an ambiguity. Tin, CHAIRMAN : I think it is perfectly clear, .mil Dr. Fitchett agrees that the New Zealanel Government has not claimed the right to alter the Imperial disc. If that is the case, I do not see why the Australian Colonies should not do exactly the same. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : I want to put myself in the same position. Hon. \\. M. HUGHES: That does not do so. The mere fact of Dr. Fitchett saying that, does not alter the fact that at law these words mean what a Court of Law may say they mean. The CHAIRMAN : Let us proceed now; I think we have made the position clear. Let us proceed to (6) : "That it is advisable to have a light load-line for ships in " ballast." Sir WILLIAM LYNE : In reference to (6), I do not know of any cases where there is any direct provision or definite provision, but I do know that some of the most dangerous voyages that are made- by ships are by sailing ships in light ballast. I have had an experience myself, and I think it is very dangerous. Now there is a provision in the New Zealand Act in reference to that question also. That, I think, covers it. Sm JOSEPH WARD : N... we have nothing bearing upon light load-line. Sir WILLIAM LVNE : I am not going to keep the Conference- long with regard to this matter. I think it must be patent to everyone who has been to sea that it is not advisable that a ship shall go to sea without sufficient ballast, especially on a long voyage, and such things do happen. We have had a good many casualties with ships in ballast. Now I want to see whether the Commission will agree that these ships shall have a light load-line in ballast or whether it is to be .left with the respective Governments to see when a ship is seaworthy or when she is not. Now I do not know what the Imperial Govern ment Act elms- The question is this—a ship is going to Australia in ballast from here or anywhere, she has a load-line, and it is the other way about, she does not carry enough. Mn. NORMAN HILL: We should detain her if she was unseaworthy. Sir WILLIAM LYNE: Do you give her a certain minimum '.' Mr. NORMAN HILL : No. Sm WILLIAM LYNE : Now, supposing that ship goes to Australia, what power have we? Mu. NORMAN HILL: If we go to an Australian port, and she is unseaworthy, you could detain her. Sir WILLIAM LVNK : 1 want to know if we have some light load-line ? Hon. DUGALD THOMSON : It is very difficult. Some ships can travel without ballast. Sir WILLIAM LYNE : They should not. Hon. \V. M. HUGHES: Have you no regulations about ballast load-line? The CHAIRMAN : I will ask Mr. Howell to answer that.