109

V. G. DALZIELL.

I.—3a.

14. Mr. Massey.] That is, they had purchased from you prior to your purchasing from the Natives? —Yes; that is, Mr. Mason Chambers had an option: they had an agreement to purchase from ilr. Mason Chambers. However, they were more concerned in it than that —in this way : a further property was being taken over by the company, and the delay in settling this matter was apparently verj inconvenient for them. One of the partners —-Mr. I , 'laser —attended one of these meetings, and, 1 suppose, his judgment was not the same as mine : lie was a little more afraid than I as to the result, and he probably reported that to Mr. Loughnan. At any rate, the result was that Mr. Loughnan thought it was advisable to comply with Mr. Hardy's demands; and that was ultimately agreed to. Then 1 attended the final meeting, on the 21st or 22nd March. At that meeting the resolution was carried without any dissent at all. I then went on to Auckland to attend a meeting of the Maori Land Board in order to apply for the confirmation of this resolution. I knew that before I could get an agreement to sell from the Maori Land Board it was necessary to have the Order in Council issued and to satisfy the Maori Land Board that the Natives had other lands sufficient for their maintenance. When I got to Auckland, however, I found I was not in a position to supply them with all the necessary information about other lands, and also the Order in Council had not been gazetted. I had understood from Mr. Fisher before I left here that it would be gazetted on a certain date, but there was some delay. The Board fully considered the question, and came to the conclusion that if 1 could satisfy them upon these two points they would confirm the resolution. There was no question of the Board taking my word on either of these points. The Board very properly would not confirm the resolution until they were satisfied upon these two questions; and they therefore intimated to me that they would confirm them subject to the production of evidence on these two points. At that meeting the terms of the agreement which the Board was to execute for the sale of the Natives' interest were discussed and finally approved, although, of course, not executed. This agreement had been drawn by Mr. Skerrett and approved of by myself. It was drawn with the intention of carrying out the undertaking that had been given to the Government with respect to the matter of subdivision, and Mr. Skerrett was satisfied, and I am thoroughly satisfied, that it carries out that purpose. The President of the Maori Land Board very rightly insisted that in this matter he should have the advice, at the purchaser's expense, of the Crown Solicitor in Auckland. That was accordingly arranged, and the agreement was approved by Mr. Tole, and all subsequent documents which have been signed by Mr. Bowler have also had Mr. Tole's approval. 15. The Chairman.] Is Mr. Tole solicitor to the Maori Land Board?—He is Crown Solicitor. I expect he is solicitor to the Board. Sir James Carroll could tell you. Hon. Sir J . Carroll: There is no solicitor to the Board. Witness: That agreement, I expect, has been put in. It is, of course, intended as an agreement for the sale of the property by the Natives to Mr. Lewis. The Chairman: We have copies, I think. Witness: It contains the usual provisions in an agreement for the sale of land, with the usual penalties for not carrying out the contract. It contains, however, further provisions intended to enforce the cutting-up of the property. In determining the form of these provisions it was necessary to do what we could in the way of making the alienations as free from difficulties as possible —that is, consistently with the purpose; and we think that has been carried out. Now, it has been suggested that the Natives have not received sufficient value for their land. Of course, that must largely be a matter of opinion. 1 should like to say this, however, that I have gone into the question of the actuarial value of the respective interests of the Native owners and the lessees of this land. Taking the value to be £1 per acre and the leases to be good, the value of the Natives' interest is less than £15,000; and before the value of their interest could exceed the price which has actually been paid to them the land would require to be worth more than £90,000. Further, I have never heard any suggestion at all from any person connected with these negotiations that £25,000 was not a sufficient price. Now, with regard to the subsequent transactions with the leases, I have copies of the various dealings which have taken place since the purchase by Mr. Lewis, and I shall be glad to answer any c]uestions relating to them, or relating to any pari of this transaction, particularly the question of due compliance with the statute and regulations. So far as I know-<~and Mr. Skerrett was also of this opinion—we have strictly complied in every respect with the statute and regulations. Of course, one can never be quite sure in these matters, but I have not heard any suggestion which throws any doubt on that opinion. 16. The Chairman.] Is not the doubt amongst the K.C.s? Like the doctors, they differ? — 1 have not heard any opinion expressed which throws any doubt at all upon that opinion of Mr. Skerrett's. I should like to say this :it was perhaps a little hard on the President of the Maori Land Board, who is not a lawyer, to have to explain the working out of a very difficult legal transaction. However, as I say, I shall be only too glad to afford the Committee any information it requires on that point. These, sir, are the main facts relating to my association with this matter. I should like now to deal very shortly with the specific charges that have been made, and to answer them if I can. In the first place, as I understand, Mr. Massey has made two charges only before the Committee. Hon. Sir J . Carroll They are not charges. Witness: Two statements, rather. Mr. Massey: The statement I made is on record. Perhaps you had better read it and tell us what you refer to. Witness: It was really when Mr. Massey was cross-examined by Mr. Ngata. Mr. Massey agreed there with Mr. Ngata's suggestion, subject to the matter being kept open for further questions, that there were really two questions involved so far as he was concerned. They were both of a public nature. One was that the interests of the public had been sacrificed, and the other that the Natives had not received sufficient for their land. Mr. Massey: Would you mind quoting the exact words? Witness: T can quote it from the Dominion