I.—3a.

130

[W. C. KENSINGTON.

33. Are these costs of the original survey of the block before Mr. Jones got the leases?—l (-in find that out. I cannot tell you from memory. 34. You do not know of any agreement between Mr. Jones and the Natives or the Crown as to who was to pay the surveys? — No. Any information that we have I can furnish the Committee with. 35. Mr. Kemji Welch in his letter says there arc 140,000,000 tuns of coal. From your kn<>\\ ledge, do you think that is an exaggerated statement?— l should say so. It is hardly possible for any one to tell. 1 should think that might apply to the main strike of the outcrops outside the Mokau-Mohakatino Block; but no one could possibly tell what quantity of coal is their. 36. Has the Department got any report? —No, we have no estimate of the amount of coal. • ST. Are you aware what the Geological Department has got?—No •!iB. You have never had occasion to refer the matter to the Geological Department?— No. 39. If the legal difficult it's had not stood in the way. you could have bought the leases, at all events, for £20,000, according to Mr. Kemp Welch? — Really, I do not understand Mr. Kemp Welch's letter. 40. I understand he offered the leases for £20,000? —I really do not understand what he intended. We never knew that he had any power to make an offer. 41. What I want to get at is the sum?—lt was £20,000 that he mentioned. 42. If he had had the power to sell, the Government could have purchased the leases at that time for £20,000? —Yes. That is his statement only. 43. How long have you been purchasing Native lands?— Actually since I have been Undersecretary. 44. Have you always been the Native Land Purchase Officer, or does the Native Department do this work?—Up to the passing of the Act of 1909 most Crown lands have been purchased— eicept when Mr. Sheridan was Native Land Purchase Officer— by the Crown Lands Department. Ever since 1905, anyhow, we have been purchasing. 45. Do you know of any offer being made by the .Natives to the Crown to sell, since 1905? It has been stated that there was an offer to sell for £22,500? — No, I have not seen that at all. The only offers I know of are those I read out to-day—from Mr. Kemp Welch and Mr. Hielop. 46. Those only refer to the leasehold interest?—l think they refer to the freehold. In one of them he says that he will clear away all difficulties for the sum he asks. 1 refer to Mi - . Hislop, acting for Mr. Jones. 47. But that is at £150,000? —Yes. No, I know of no other offers than those. 48. The Cabinet minute of the 28th January says, "Government is agreeable to purchase." What did you understand by that —the leasehold or the freehold? —The freehold, certainly. 49. At that time was there any indication that the Natives wished to sell?— No. I did not know whether the Natives wished to sell or not. I only knew that the Government were anxious to purchase. 50. You, as Native Land Purchase Officer, did not know? —1 only direct. The Native Land Purchase Officer is Mr. Paterson, our Chief Accountant. r>l. If any offer had come you would have known it ? —I presume so. 52. It was not in consequence of any statement made by you that the Natives were willing to sell that Cabinet came to that conclusion?— No. .">•'!. They must have got the information from other people?— Yes.. 51. The Chairman.] Overtures were being made in the meantime by Mr. Treadwel] and Mr. Jones?— Yes. r>s. Mr. Iferries.] Can you account in any way for the enormous difference in the estimate of the value of the land as between the company's representatives and your Department?— l presume it is a question of minerals. s(i. Yon are quite satisfied that these two Rangers air oapable men? — I am quite certain of it. They know every inch of the block. And the two surveyors also are men who know every inch of the block. They have done all the surveys and have known it for years. Mr, Skinner was most anxious to obtain tfie block, from a settlement point of view. 57. You do not think,they have made a mistake? —No, Ido not. Looking at the whole matter at the present time, I would make no difference in my report. 58. But the fact remains that the settlers who go on the land will, if the company are going to make a profit, have to pay more rent or purchase-money?—Of course, you must remember, as 1 mentioned, that the Department has to look :tt the matter purely from a settlement point of view. We know the block to be broken and rugged, and it will cost a very large sum to road land of that description. We have to take all those things into consideration when we are estimating the price at which the Department can afford to place the land in the market for settlers. 59. You recommended £35,000? —That was the utmost. 60. That was for the leases and the freehold? —That was for the freehold of the block, perfectly free of any mortgages or interests. I did not include in that the subleases. We should have had to deal with those afterwards under the Act, and buy out the sublessees. 61. It included what is known as Herrman Lewis's lease?— Yes 62. Are you aware what that lease could have been purchased for?— No. 63. And you do not know what the Natives wanted? —No. 1 really know nothing beyond what is shown by the papers which I have put before the Committee. 64. Mr. Massey.] Do you know of any offer on the part of the Natives to sell their interest to the Crown? —Not from the Natives direct. I think I read out about that when you were out of the room. 65. Have you reason to believe that the Natives were willing to sell to the Crown? —Oh, yes. 1 understand from the Cabinet minute that the Natives were willing to sell. That is all I know.