1.—13 a.

22

W. C. W. MCDOWELL.

for the students and unsatisfactory for the teachers." You have read Professor Maclaurin's opinion? —Yes. It is tinged with the American style now. 49. He is a man of ability?— Exceptional ability. 50. He was in New Zealand? —Yes, and was a great friend of mine, and 1 am sorry to see that he has changed. 51. He says, " The conditions have, however, been wholly changed, and your system is now antiquated and entirely opposed to the trend of the best educational practice"?— Yes, but I do not admit it. 52. Since Professor Maclaurin has gone to America he lias come to recognize, after acquaintance with the American universities, that our system is a little bit antique—archaic?—l think he has probably been affected by the American institutions. 53. Professor Tucker is a man of local experience? —Yes, he is now in Melbourne. 54. He says, " Of course, I should regard the present state of things in New Zealand as intolerable. It is cumbrous; it is humiliating; and it is educationally a drag"?— Yes. ■">.">. I put it to you that these opinions have been quoted from eminent educational authorities, and that they all declare that the system of examination adopted here is unsatisfactory?—l do not say it is entirely satisfactory myself. I have acknowledged that. 56. Then do you not think it is advisable for Parliament to set up a Commission to investigate the whole matter? —No. r>7. The libraries and finance? —Yes, the libraries. 58. Have you read the opinions of the men who have the examining themselves, in tho appendix? —No, I have not had time j*et. 59. Let me direct your attention to what Sir William Ramsay says? —I have read that. 60. Sir William Ramsay says, "I have examined in chemistry for the University of New Zealand for feur years; having examined for the London University, before its reform, for five, 1 have much experience of the system of external examinations, and do not hesitate to condemn it utterly. Its worse consequences are still to be seen in the Indian universities, which are thoroughly rotten —where all the work is examinational, and where tlio results are beneath contempt. The results of my experience in examining for New Zealand have confirmed my conclusions." These are words of very great weight, are they not? —I do not know that they are. 61. Would not such opinions, coming from the lips of a man like Sir William Ramsay, lead you to believe that you are wrong?— No. I think if he were as familiar with it as I have been all these years he would not say that. 62. I put it to you that these opinions of gentlemen acquainted with our system for a long time in New Zealand offer a strong body of evidence which raises the presumption that the system of external examination is unsatisfactory?—No, I think we ought to work out our own system, and not Anglicize, Germanize, or Americanize it. We ought to grow under the system established here, and should not be influenced by American or German institutions as to how we should conduct our examinations. 63. Have you read about the system :tt the Melbourne University? —I do not think the Melbourne University is on a par with ours; there is one university there, and where that is so it is all light having local examinations; but the peculiarities of our system are such that it would be more objectionable to have an internal system than the present system. 64. But why not have an inquiry? —I did not come clown to object to an inquiry. I came down to speak in reference to the colleges, the hall-mark of the degree of the University of New Zealand, and to show how admirably adapted it is to its purposes. The Council of the Otago University has been enlarged. We shall probably have fifteen or sixteen members on our Auckland College Councils, and that would mean sixty-four or seventy members on our Senate if the proposal formulated by the Reform Association was put in force. It is somewhat difficult with us in Auckland, with the number of our present Council, to get a quorum on account of some of the members not being able to attend. There are several lawyers on it, and owing to their Court practice they cannot be present at times. It will be a great help to us to get several additional men. 65. You have read Chapter VIII on " Reorganization "? —Yes, I have glanced at it. 66. It is suggested here that any scheme of reorganization " must promote the co-ordination of the work of the University and the four colleges." Do you not think there is room for coordination in the work, and for soroe sort of a system that will bring the representatives of the four colleges together for co-ordination work? —I do believe in that, and I think I told Professor Laby in Auckland that I should be pleased to see regular meetings of the whole Professorial Boards. 67. Taking a step further, do you not think it would be desirable that those professors who meet should have a greater voice in arranging the curricula ?—Yes, I think that would be desirable. 68. Do you not think likewise that the scheme of reorganization would promote the individuality of the four colleges?—l think that they should maintain their individuality. 69. And that any scheme should prevent as far as possible any overlapping?— Yes, but there will always be a certain amount of overlapping. 70. On page 112 it says, " The professoriate should form a conjoint Board whose business it would be to draw the curricula for degrees, subject to veto by the Senate, and to conduct examinations according to such policy as the university may adopt." You will not believe in that because you believe in the external examination? —Yes, I do. 71. The Chairman.] I understand that your chief objection to the setting-up of the Royal Commission is lest it would endanger the present system of examination ?—Yes, and put disabilities on the night students. 72. Mr. Herdman.] Can you point to any passage in the pamphlet which indicates any intention to interfere with the night classes? —I think so. At page 10 it practically says that owing to the night classes it is not worthy to be called a New Zealand University education.