A.—4.

418

11th Day.] British and Foreign Shipping. [19 June, 1911. Sir JOSEPH WAKD—cont. before, that this legislation beyond all question is a menace to the local shipping, and especially their crews in our country; I am not overstating it when 1 say that, and it is recognised to a much larger extent by the officers, engineers, and crews of these vessels than by the owners even, who recognise it too, because, after all, if the owners were forced, owing to the abnormal condition of affairs, to lay their ships up, it is going to mean the introduction of other ships with cheap crews to carry that trade between our respective countries. What I think, after the important statement made by Mr. Buxton, is that there should be something done to enable us to have this condition of affairs altered. I want to say that at the Navigation Conference in 1907, to which Mr. Buxton referred in the course of his speech, generally speaking I supported what was done at that Navigation Conference because I believed it was as far as we could possibly go, and I do not believe as a general principle in having imposed upon people, who have enormous amounts at stake in great shipping or any other organizations, conditions which will make it impossible for them to have a reasonable return on their capital and a full return in the shape of depreciation, and Ido not want to see them injured in any way whatever. But since the Navigation Conference of 1907, as far as the oversea Dominions go — and I am speaking for New Zealand—the condition has been altered in the direction I state. Prior to 1907 we had not that menace against the continuous employment of white crews, because I do want to re-affirm the fact that our laws which have been built up in connection with our industries in our countries make it impossible for the shipowners out there to employ their crews at lesser wages than they are doing now, and I want to point out the absolute impossibility of their standing up against that position which has occurred since the Navigation Conference of 1907, and is already making a serious inroad upon what has hitherto been regarded by the people of New Zealand as a very fine company, catering splendidly for the people generally. It is one of a number to which I am alluding for the moment, because there are several companies in New Zealand, and each of these companies feels that it is being placed in a very difficult position indeed owing to the action of a large British shipping company, a well managed company, a company against which I have not a word to say, and a company we are very pleased indeed to see in New Zealand, but only if the conditions of labour were not likely to be disastrous to the locally owned shipping. I do not want to take up the time of the Conference further, except to sajr that I should like to be able to see my way to comply with Mr. Buxton's request, after having heard the position, that I should agree not to press this Resolution. I am exceedingly sorry, however, that I cannot see my way to do that. This matter I look upon as so important, so vital to the interests of the white crews in our country, so essential for the preservation of the great shippingorganizations that are there—the matter is so great from the standpoint of endeavouring to meet a position that is in conflict with the conditions which exist in our country—that I can only decline to assent to the proposal. lam exceedingly sorry, under the circumstances, that I must ask Mr. Harcourt to put the Resolution to the Conference, as I desire to record my own vote upon it. Sir WILFRID LAURIER : I stated earlier in the day that in Canada we are disposed to support this Resolution of Sir Joseph Ward's, and the discussion which has just taken place has emphasized in that direction the position we said we would take. Sir Joseph Ward has just stated that this question is governed by the Imperial Statute of 1894. That is the reason why, if it is so, I would be more disposed to record our vote for this. The position we have taken up on this question is that by the British North American Act, the Act which constituted the Dominion of Canada, we have received plenary power to legislate on shipping. That position we take up. Mr. BUXTON : Was not that merely a consolidating Act—the Act of 1894 \ It did not give further power beyond what existed before. Mr. BRODEUR : But at the same time it repealed some sections which had been incorporated in our legislation.