PROFESSOR HUNTER. 1

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in England appointed by the University of New Zealand for the purpose. Of recent years there has been a strong agitation in New Zealand in favour of a reoonstitution of the University so as to make it a teaching university of the federal type." In view of the wider interests of the Dominion you may say this has little effect. I think probably it lias more effect than most people imagine, but there is one way in which it does seriously affect this country, and most seriously affect it, and that is in the scope that it gives the colleges in the selection of professors. At the present time the Auckland University has three vacancies on its staff and Otago University has a vacancy, and as the older men are compelled to give up the work in New Zealand other vacancies will arise. One of the most important things is that these vacancies should be filled by the best type of men, and if Professor Laby were here he would be able to give you evidence of the fact that the good type of men is absolutely refusing to leave positions of less remuneration because of the conditions under which they would have to work here; particularly-is this so with science men. There are one or two points 1 should like to mention with a view of shortening any questions members may wish to ask,. One matter which lias been urged by members of the Committee is that good men have been through the University. That is perfectly true, but that does not imply that the methods of the University are sound. I think it would be just as logical to say that because certain people who are not vaccinated escape smallpox there is no need for vaccination. Good men do go through a lot of trouble, but it is not reasonable to risk putting them through it, and certainly for the rank and file it is a very bad thing. In reference to the effect of the external system on university education may I be allowed to give an instance. If you take the training that the teacher has to-day I think you will find that it is recognized that experimental psychology is the recognized basis of that training, and yet it is not taught in the University of New Zealand. Victoria College has set up a laboratory, but the University does not recognize the work. This is one instance in which we have fallen hopelessly behind, and we have done so because of the fact that with external examinations in the subject of mental and moral philosophy, where you have a large group of subjects, it is impossible to get any man expert in them all. In many British universities there are two Chairs on the subject, and at the present time the examiner for the New Zealand University does not teach psychology and logic, the subjects of the pass degree. I do not say that man is incompetent to examine, but I say it is not the best way of providing that the University teaching shall be as far as possible up to date. Then the question was raised about the good teachers we have had, but it is interesting to note that in verj' many cases some of our most outstanding teachers—those who have been looked upon as the outstanding men in the University—have not achieved what may be considered a great success as measured by the external examinations. The students of Professor Sale did not achieve great success in classics, and then, again, you will find that the students of a professor of eminence, those of the late Dr. Jeffrey Parker, did not achieve great distinction in University examinations. In science, too, there is greater opportunity because of the original research work that is required by the syllabus in the New Zealand University, but this is absent in a large number of subjects. The same thing is true in the case of Professor Maclaurin. of Victoria College. ■ His students did not achieve great success from the point of view of examinations, and there are many men in the University of quite inferior calibre to any of these men whose students have achieved much greater success measured by mere examination results. One member of the Committee asked for an actual instance in which we found that men we considered to be good had failed and men we considered perhaps not so good had passed. I think you can find many such cases in the history of the University. 3. And you might find the same under the other system perhaps? —Exactly. The great advantage of the system we advocate is that we fix the responsibility on some one. If it is shown that a professor passes people who subsequent experience shows are inferior, then it is a real reflection on him. At present there is no reflection on anybody. The English examiner in a way removes the responsibility from the teacher, and at the same time the net result is that he really cramps the ability of the teacher. A point was raised, I think by Mr. Thomson, in regard to the training of good men. I should like to give a striking illustration of that, which Mr. Thomson will appreciate. If you take the Otago Mining School you find there a school that, judged by the demand there lias been for its graduates, is a school that occupies a good name over a very wide area. Students from Otago School of Mines have gone to many parts of the Empire, but you. do not find that the majority of these men are graduates of the University. The man who laid the foundation of that school —the late Professor Ulrich—was wise enough to see that external examination would not give him the result he desired, and he started a diploma of his own, and that is the diploma that most of these men have taken. If you look at the University results you will find that very few of the assßciates of the Otago School of Mines have taken the University degree. That is a good illustration of the difference between the teaching and examining of the University. In regard to the point raised by Mr. Sidey that Commissions are not always successful, we know they are not, but there is one very striking illustration in New Zealand at the present time, and that is the immense value of the report given to this country on the question of defence by Lord Kitchener. T think that is a striking illustration of what can be done if you choose the right type of Commission. i. Mr. Statham.] You said that under the present system there is no reflection cast upon the teachers, but is it not a fact that before the students sit for the Home examinations they have to pass the local examinations?— That is not universally so. There are certain subjects where it is not so, and some subjects where it is so. Generally speaking, that is correct. Since this agitation started the University has been very much more stringent in this respect in arts and sciences. 5. Mr. Malcolm.) Is it not a fact that, knowing the student has afterwards to sit for his examination in degree work, the professors are very reluctant to turn a man down in his class