1.—13 a.

22

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39. Are you satisfied with the position of the Bachelor of Arts and Bachelor of Science degrees as they exist now?—l do not say that the terms are absolutely perfection, bul J believe with President Lincoln that if you get the second-best you are very fortunate. 40. Then, with regard to the question of the external student, does that come up prominently before us us a question "I reform in New Zealand—as prominently us in London, for instance? — No, because we have not the London system. If you look at the regulations for external students in London you will see they have a book on the external alone and another book on the internal students. All. l wanted to say was that the London report cannot aid us because the London system is so different from ours. You will find. then, that if Parliament carries out the abolition of the external student and external examination they will have to set up some other body that. will perform the same function —that i< absolutely certain. 41. Are there many external students in our affiliated colleges! —1 could give you a list. There is always a few. I will give you an example of the students at terms in Victoria College in 1912. There were thirty-four in English, thirty-four Latin, seven French, three German, eleven mental science, seven economics, nine Knil:r!i hi I : . two geography, twenty education, twelve jurisprudence, seventeen constitutional history, fourteen mathematics, and one mechanics. Of course, thai docs not mean separate individual students—that means the subjects taken. There may only have been forty altogether. But you see the number, for example, in English 102 sat for examination of the students attending, and 34 external: that was altogether 136 in English. 42. Would you suggest it would be wise to have external students who were taking scientific subjects thai required laboratory experience J— ln certain subjects we cannot have external students they rr.usl have laboratory experience; but you have external students in mathematics. 1 do not think you could in physics and chemistry. I-!. Of engineering, or medicine?— That is a totally different thing altogether. Of course. even in London the external student had to attend in medicine at a college approved by the University before he was allowed to sit. 11. Do you know the report of the Commission on external students] — l have not seen the full report —only the digest. 45. They do not propose to do away with external students right away?—No, not the whole of them; they propose to modify it. The Graduates' Association of the London University met and condemned it for that reason. I think you will see that mentioned in the London Timet, but I do not know whether it was in the educational number or not. l(i. I want to sum up the questions I have asked. I understand you to say that you are disappointed with the results of the University work as far as it has gone, especially in science and mathematics! —Yes. 47. And I understand you to say that there is a considerable difference of opinion as to the constitution of the Senate itself, although you do not agree with it?— Yes. 48. You think the constitution of the Senate is all right?— You can get perhaps hundreds of variations, but 1 do not think you will get any better result. In the Senate there are these classes represented: the Government, which ought to be represented; the teachers, which ought to be represented; the three local colleges, and they ought to be represented; and, fourth, the graduates. What else can you suggest .' There are the four different selectors, and Ido not think you can gel any better than that. 49. Then there is a difference of opinion and a difficulty in settling questions like degrees of Bachelor of Science, and Bachelor of Arts? —I do not think we have had any difficulty in the past. The position is this: generally <peakiiiL r . although there may be exceptions, but as a general rule no alteration has ever been made in the syllabus without consulting the experts in that syllabus. If we wanted to deal with the English syllabus we always asked the English professors, anil in mathematics we asked the professors in mathematics. 50. 1 would ask you whether, in obtaining the "pinions of those professors, it has been very satisfactory?— Sometimes they differ. 1 know the last time the matter came up in regard to mathematics there wrw two on one side and two on the other, and then there was a compromise effected. That is generally what happens, I suppose. 51. Now. what I want to ask is this : taking your own admission that the results are unsatisfactory from the point of view of science. and mathematics, and different other things in which you do not agree with those who are asking for reform, what do you suggest is the lw?t wav for Parliament to obtain the knowledge which would justify it in making some change to produce better results? —I do not think yon can produce better results except by leavintr it to the local bodies; and, seeing that their circumstances are similar and that they are continually asking for money, you have to find out how they are spending the money. You can test it without any Commission. We know that in science there are a number of assistants. A professor with thirt'v students has an assistant and sometimes two assistants. 52. Then, by the " local body " you mean the Councils of the University?—Certainlv. 53. The Councils of the University apparently, from your point of view, have adequately equipped schools from the teaching standpoint .'• Yes, more than adequate—extravagantly. 54. Would they be able to advise us on the question of why there are not more students attending those schools ?—Except you go d> the students and go into an investigation yon could not get a Council in this case which would help you; but to confine your attention as to who should be in the Senate would not help you. 55. It is a question of reform which you admit is necessary?— The only reform I admit is necessary is that you -ami by you particularly I mean Parliament—have before you reports, and you ought to see that there are efficient results from the expenditure of the money." 50. That is the whole point?— When they come to you for money the question would be. How many students have you, and how many assistants? Have your students gone up or gone down how do they stand 1