SIB B. aTOUT.j

23

1.—13 a.

57. When we have got those particulars what is Parliament to do?— Parliament should say, until you are more efficient and have more science students we cannot give you more assistance. 58. Would you suggest cutting the money off?— It you haw only thirty students in a class, and you have perhaps two assistants in a class, that is an undue expenditure of money. 59. That is not the point I want to get at. I have a perfectly open mind on the subject? —I have a lot of figures here. 60. What 1 want to get at is your views, how «>■ should get to know what steps we ought to take to reform what you admit is a weakness?—] think the Department is quite competent to do it without outside assistance. You have your experts, and you could ask the University Councils to work out the difficulties and point out how thej should be remedied, and you have your representatives on the College Councils. 61. Do you think the College Councils us constituted are able t" give us advice on the question i.l' teaching science and why it is not successful .'- -I say that the way I should deal with the matter is this: here you have science being taught : your science students instead of increasing are decreasing in some of the University colleges, and why is this/ Must you not take steps to remedy this before you come to us for assistance? i know what I would say if I had to deal with it. 62. Then, to settle the unrest ?—1 deny there is any unrest in the mind of the general public. I say the whole unrest has been created by a few calling themselves " reformers'' in Wellington. They have gqt some professors from Canterbury to come along with them—perhaps a majority, but not all— a few from Otago, and a few from Auckland, but the majority of those in Otago are the other way, I am told. 63. Well, I will not call it " unrest " there is an agitation ?—Yes, but the agitation does not touch the point of want of attendance in the students. The whole agitation is aimed at two tilings: first; that tin- professors should be the examiners; and. second, that the professors should be the dominant party in the University so far as the course of study is concerned under the original programme of the Reform Association. You will see that is the whole object. They have not touched these other points I have mentioned with their little finger. 64. I am not alluding to teaching science—l am alluding to the demand of some for reform of the constitution of the Senate, and the question of examination and syllabus, and the professorial position in the question of examinations. Those are the questions? —That is so. (i.">. So far as thi> Committee is concerned we have had one side representing their case and another side representing their case to us, and if we find a difficulty in coming to a conclusion what is the right course to pursue with this evidence before us? Do you think we could be helped in any way by advice from a Royal Commission) — I doubt it very much. It would depend a very great deal on whom you select. Last year it was proposed that you should get Dr. Hill. I am not saying a word against him —T believe he is an eminent and able man—but he has expressed his opinion of what a university should be before you make your selection, and that is like selecting your judge. Then you have Mr. Hosking, Mr. McNab, and Mr. Fowlds suggested. Do yon imagine that they know more about University matters than members who have been in the Senate for thirty or forty years? If this whole idea of reform had come from outside it would be different, but when it comes from men who are wanting to get control themselves what attention should you pay to it? If the teachers were by resolution to demand that they should be on the School Committees and had the dominating power of the syllabus, and the Education Board was to take advice from them, would Parliament listen to them? That is analogous. 66. I gather from the first part of your answer that you could conceive it possible that a Commission or Hoard might be appointed that would be ahle to assist us?—l do not deny that you may lie able to get experienced men. There is one man who has retired from the professorate, a man like Professor Sale or Professor Shand. But to appoint men as Commissioners who have taken no interest in education seems to me to be a great farce. W T hat knowledge can a man from England have of our history and surroundings to be able to impart knowledge to us? 67. Then we have got this far : you could conceive it possible to appoint a Commission that would be of value? far as I am personally concerned I can tell you frankly that I have remained on the Senate for the last two or three years and have had no holidays, because the Senate always sits in January when a Judge has his holidays. I have only had nine days' holiday within the last two or three years, and I would not have remained on but for the fact that 1 thought a great injury was going to be inflicted on the University, and I did not want to run away from the fight. I never do that. 68. I do not know what it may be, but we want your advice?—l doubt honestly very much whether you could get more knowledge than you have now. You have the report of your InspectorGeneral of Schools ami the statistics. It is for you to consider whether you can conceive as a Committee an improvement in the constitution of the University. Ido not mean to say you may not alter it. but I doubt very much whether you will get better men than you have had in the past. There are always weak men in every body as there are weak men in Parliament. You have to look at what you are likely to get. I have no object to serve but to forward education, and 1 will do anything I can to help. If I thought it was going to do any good in the way of education I would not stand in the way. It is nothing to me. 69. My mind is absolutely open, hast year I was opposed to setting up a Commission, but supposing the Committee did come to the conclusion that it was wise to appoint a Commission [ understand you to say that it would not be wise to appoint some English expert who did not know the New Zealand local conditions? —I do not think so. 70. Can you suggest to us what sort of Commission in your opinion would be most able to help us?- -We had a Commission appointed in 1879, and I was a party to appointing that Commission. You will see the names there, and some of them are still alive. 71. Do you suggest something like that?—lf you have a Commission like that I do not object to it. If you have a Commission you should make the Commission exhaustive and not deal with