1.—7.

168

W. T. OAKNEY.

25. You know that as a fact? —Yes, sir. 26. To whom is the meat consigned that you send from New Zealand? —All that is released in London—the meat that the Imperial Government does not require—is released to McLean and Laurenson, meat salesmen, of London. 27. All the meat purchased by you in New Zealand is released to them? —No, all the meat we handle is not consigned to them. The meat we handle is sold to the Imperial Government. 28. But the meat released in London? —what about it? —It goes to them. We nominate it to them in New Zealand. 29. The company that you have floated in New Zealand has been registered with a capital of only £20,000?— That is all. 30. Is that sufficient capital to run your business?— Yes, it is. Our business is all done on the guarantee to the bank, and if our bankers see fit to let us have £250,000 on a capital of £20,000 that is up to them. But I think if you will look into the other concerns in New Zealand doing a much larger business than we are, with a very much smaller capital, in the same line in which we are in, you will see that there is nothing extraordinary about our position. In normal times our business is done in New Zealand on a letter of credit, requiring no money in New Zealand. 31. On a London credit? —A London credit. 32. Who establishes your credit?—l cannot tell you. We have never had one established. 33. The list we have from the Department shows that your company has shipped a fair amount of meat from New Zealand during the past year?— Yes, sir. 34. How do you do that business? —Mr. J. Ogden Armour, of Chicago, guarantees our overdraft with the bank. 35. Armour of Chicago? —Yes, Mr. J. Ogden Armour gives his personal guarantee. 36. You said just now that you had no interest in Armour and Co., and no interest in the Ocean Beach works? —Yes, sir. 37. Are you interested in any other works in New Zealand?— Not in any works in New Zealand. Wo are not connected in any way, directly or indirectly, with any works in New Zealand. 38. When you say that, do you mean the company that you represent or Armour and Co. of Chicago?—My company. T know nothing of what Armour and Co. of Chicago are doing. 39. You tell us they give you a credit?—l did not tell you anything of the sort, I said that Mr. J. Ogden Armour personally guaranteed our overdraft, It is a personal guarantee of Mr. J. Ogden Armour, and not a guarantee on the part of Armour and Co. of Chicago. 40. And has this J. Ogden Armour nothing to do with the firm of Armour and Co. of Chicago? —Certainly; he is the president of Armour and Co. of Chicago. 41. Yet you say that your company has nothing to do with Armour and Co. of Chicago?— None at all. 42. What does this man guarantee your overdraft for, then? Is he a philanthrophist, or what is his idea? —Well, he may be a philanthrophist, if you put it that way. The Chairman! Tt is a legal distinction between the man and the corporate body to which he belongs. 43. Mr. The Committee wants to know why he is prepared to give you this credit?— Because we are carrying his name in New Zealand and trying to make money for him. 44. Then he must be connected with Armour and Co. of New Zealand? —'Not at all. 45. But still he is president of the other concern —a very fine distinction?—lt is a general practice all over the world. Just because you are interested in works at Patea it does not follow that you must not be interested in other works, or that you cannot form a company with your own money somewhere else. 46. You said just now that the meat from these works owned by Birt and Co. in New Zealand was not, consigned to Armour and Co. of London?— Yes, I said so, and it is a fact. 47. I have a pamphlet here from Armour and Co. of Chicago, and this is what it says : "Armour and Co. do business in virtually every commercial country of the globe; and Armour products are found practically wherever steamships or railroad trains travel. To-day the familiar Armour oval label is hardly less known in Europe than in America. Armour packing plants are operated in Argentina, Brazil, Canada, and New Zealand." What have you to say to that? — A mistake. 48. A mistake? —Yes, sir. 49. And it, says also that " Armour selling organizations are located in London, Paris, Rotterdam, Hamburg, Bremen, Frankfort, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Milan, Cape Town, Havana, Buenos Aires, Panama, Canada, and elsewhere." That is their own published statement?—Of Armenian d Co. of Chicago. 50. You say it is a mistake? —Yes, sir. 51. You know that these works in New Zealand do not belong to them?—l do, sir. I know that no plant in New Zealand belongs to Armour and Co. 52. It is a very extraordinary state of things,, is it not, that such a statement should be published? —It is, and it has already been pointed out to them. 53. It would tie advisable for them to take it out of their pamphlet?—lt would, very much so. 54. This pamphlet is published in 1.917, so that it is quite up to date; and on the titlepage it says, " Containing facts about the business and organization " of Armour and Co. You have only just floated this company in New Zealand? —About a year ago. 55. What is the amount of meat you have shipped during this last year : can you give us that? —Yes, sir,