1.—12.

36

[J. A. THOMSON.

they should have younger men working under them, and we cannot get these men unless we can offer them a career. If you have a Board with an endowment, that Board will offer a five-years engagement to a young man, and will make it worth his while going on with scientific work. Ai present it pays a man better to go in for school-teaching than for scientific investigation. \\ hen the Hon. Mr. Russell, as Minister of Internal Affairs, attended the meeting of the Board of Governors of the New Zealand Institute last year and said that Cabinet would not for a moment agree to the endowment part of the scheme the following resolution was passed: "That this meeting of the Board of Governors considers it an essential part of the scheme for scientific and industrial research that the Board should be a trust to administer public and other funds given for the purpose for which it is constituted, and that for the first five years its finances should not be subjected to any amendment by Parliament, although duly audited." The Board would make a programme extending over five years, and as far as that programme is concerned we do not want any outside control. At the end of five years, if the Board has not made good, Parliament could refuse to give any further money. You cannot test out these schemes in one year or two years, and we think it is reasonable to ask for finances for five years. The Board consists of a Minister of Science and Industry, a salaried Director, and four other members (not salaried), who would be elected from all the bodies interested in the working of the scheme. Two of the members would represent industry and two science, and the Director would be a scientist with a knowledge of industry. The Minister would be the only Government official. The question of how this Board is going to work with the Government Departments is an important matter, and is referred to in clauses 7 (a) and 7 (6). It is not suggested that the four members should receive remuneration. We believe we can get four persons who will undertake the duties for patriotic reasons, being allowed probably travelling-expenses. 1. To Mr. Sidey.] The Efficiency Board has communicated the scheme to the Government. The constituency is in accordance with the recommendation Of the New Zealand Institute. When the Hon. Mr. Russell attended the meeting of the Institute he made a verbal statement. He said he approved of the scheme generally, except the clause which created a trust. He considered that no Government would ever agree to such a clause. The resolution of the Institute, in reply to the Minister's statement, was communicated to the Efficiency Board. There was a Board of Science and Art in New Zealand. When it met in 1918 the matter had been before the Efficiency Board, and the Board of Science and Art considered it was not necessary for it to pursue the matter any further. lam aware that on this Board there are five persons appointed by the Governor-General in Council. I think the various bodies with which the Board of Science and Industry would have to work would be better satisfied if they had an election than if they had to deal with a Board appointed solely by the Governor-General in Council. I suggest that the Committee should recommend the Government to introduce legislation to give statutory enactment to the scheme. The Board of Science and Art has not made any recommendation in pursuance of subclause (2) of section 9 of its Act, except with regard to the spending of money on publications. 2. To Mr. Graigie.] We suggested the sum of £100,000 to the Efficiency Board, and the Board approved of the suggestion. We have not made out a detailed estimate of how the money would be spent. The Director would give all his time to the work of the Board. The idea of the scheme is to develop our natural products and to find out by scientific tests how they can be used. 3. To Mr. Veitch.] The Board of Science and Art it is proposed to leave to look after the Museum. It is a Board with no specific authority, in that it has no estimates over which it has any control. The system of trying to get men who were already overworked to take up grants to carry on industrial research was a futile method of going to work. The problems in New Zealand demand the whole time of capable men over a series of years. It will be the duty of the Director to make himself acquainted with industrial conditions and with a certain amount of the scientific work or problems connected with any .given industry. He would also oversee the work of the men carrying on research work, and there is no one in the Institute at present who can do that. Scientific men have a temperament. A man cannot do the best research work if he is continually turning to details of organization. Nearly all the scientific heads of departments are overburdened with departmental work and cannot get at the scientific work. It is not*possible, under the present constitution of Government Departments, to get the desired effect by strengthening the scientific staffs of the various Government Departments. The Departments deal with certain questions of industry, and there are a large number of industries which are not affected by any Government Department. Then, try as we will to prevent it, overlapping is liable to take place in Government Departments. Further, a large part of the work must be done in the universities. The professors of the universities are in many subjects the most qualified men, and they have better facilities for doing research work in some of the laboratories than we have in the Government laboratory. We do not want to create a new laboratory, but to use all the existing laboratories, both Government and university, and to have a Board which will bring the Government Departments and the University into line with one another. 4. Nearly every large industry—like the flax, brewing, sawmilling, and freezing industries— has a number of problems to consider. Some of those problems depend not only on specific investigations in regard to applied science, but depend upon investigations in pure science. You cannot get a Government Department or an individual firm to carry out investigations in pure science, although such investigations may have an important effect on the industry in question. The Department of Agriculture carries out a number of investigations, but they do.not carry out all the investigations. There is not the slightest doubt that we have lost a large number of valuable men from time to time—men who have gone to other countries. I know personally three or four